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Say no to Autoaim!

wg has ruined wowp

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Renwor #281 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:00 AM

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Thats funny. Yes, it did not appear "by itself" but it may be a sideeffect of something else.  Somebody "slightly altered" a variable of existing "aim aid" to achieve ...whatever. Maybe even higher hit ratio.
Senior programmer has no chance to check the result, apart from testing. It did not break the code.
Sure, if "hit ratio and it's influence on average lifetime of airplane, in synergy with (admitted) increased damage per bullet hit" was one of code testing scenarios  - then you may be right.
If the tracers of "altered path" bullets were removed, we would have never known, some more attentive people may have been wondering about their hit ratios, but confirmed 50% hit ratio increase would equal to 50% increase of hitbox surface, which is square root of 1.5 in dimension: , that means 23% increase.  Hitboxes of 12,3 m x 6,15m instead of current 10x5m  could achieve similar result. Simplification, I know.
Would announcement in patch notes " We have increased the dimension of hitboxes by 20%"   cause such outcry? I think not.

Edited by Renwor, 30 September 2013 - 09:03 AM.


 


djaxup #282 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:02 AM

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View Postzmeul, on 30 September 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

View PostShade1982, on 30 September 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

After WG has officially confirmed this to be a bug
bug? what have you been smoking?!
bugs just don't appear and surely not in programming

do books write themselves? no
neither does programming code

the section that handles plane weapons / aiming was deliberately altered - they're gonna tell it's altered itself? HA!

yes, I'm a programmer and I know exactly what I'm talking about

the senior programmers just don't approve code without it doing exactly what was planed to do
you just don't touch code that you should not be touching

a bug, no .. this is a feature


This is just bogus. Stuff like this happens all the time in programming where things stop working or start to behave erratic after you changed something completely different. Just about every big project suffers from this. I work in a company with lots of software developers in some very large projects, and even with the biggest precautions errors occur and make their way into QA / testing. And guess what, that is us at the moment. This is still the testing phase, remember?

I also disagree with the poster above saying they tried to sneak in some change unnoticed. Makes no sense. Right now this is so game changing that no one in their right mind would assume that this change would go through unnoticed. I am confident it just slipped past the internal tests and that's it. Just imagine you are an internal tester for the patch, and some kind of "autoaim" change was not a part of the patch. I agree it is noticeable, but tbh would you have noticed it immediately without that video and forum entries? I doubt my warning lights would have flashed up so quick. After this weekend I am confident something is wrong, see below, but inside an internal testing environment, things look different than on the large scale. Which is the whole point of a large scale beta test btw. Don't go hard on the guys, things like this happen.

It will be fixed. It sure is annoying as hell, and I for one would stop playing the game if it stays like this. I also noticed a drastic drop in win ratio for this weekend. The only planes that were nice to play were the ones with lots of firepower and engine power. GAA are gutted, completely, and so are agile fighters. I spent a lot of games to get the three wins with my not yet fully tricked out YAK-3 and YAK-9u, and my Spitfires... they absolutely feel like completely underpowered compared to what you go against. I just recently aquired the BF 109Z, and although still pretty much stock this was the best plane of the weekend for me in terms of fun and power. All the heavy fighters are great, also the P51 seems to be a lot more powerful after the update, while the russian planes outright suck even more now.

zmeul #283 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:11 AM

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<p>

Quote

This is just bogus. Stuff like this happens all the time in programming where things stop working or start to behave erratic after you changed something completely different
</p>
<p>completely untrue</p>
<p>if code is to be bugged it does less, not more</p>
<p>and for sure code just doesn&#39;t alter itself, recompile itself</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the aim assist doesn&#39;t always work - that&#39;s the bug</p>
<p>if you read the developer reply a few pages back, he said that the aim assist feature should not be happening to higher tiers and surely not for hi caliber guns</p>
<p>the &quot;bug&quot; is that someone altered the code</p>
<p> </p>
<p>if it was deliberate or not .. oh I&#39;m sure it was deliberate</p>

Edited by zmeul, 30 September 2013 - 09:17 AM.

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Owieczek #284 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:14 AM

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Obviously, you have never worked on something really complex.

Grumpy_Guts #285 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:18 AM

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Say no to Auto Aim! say a big NO to all the unnecessary and over complicated controls for both joystick and mouse, in an arcade game like this is all you want to do is fly and have fun. I have been testing this game from August last year and along with many others have accepted and tried to adapt to every patch, good and bad ( MANY BAD ) this last one takes the prize. I also play WT and it requires you to be more active and aware of your surroundings and yet the controls are a lot simpler and less complicated in so far as player can play and fly get as involved without having to sort out roll rate sliders for this or that, I have not had to adjust mouse settings at all. This game has all the potential to be up there with the best but come on simplify the dam controls WG if nothing else listen to this and act.

Yours a very committed but concerned tester.

zmeul #286 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:19 AM

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here, perfect example of a real bug in my previous post ^
editing a post is bugged, the editor doesn't hide the HTML code
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Deamon93 #287 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:19 AM

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Hey touched something, deliberately or not is another story. Anyway it's not the first ninja change, WG was used to change stats without saying anything(that's why once i did the job for them after a bit of rage).

I pretend that it's a bug and until it's fixed i won't play. Then i hope there will be more focus on the ST so everything will be tested before implementation.


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djaxup #288 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:19 AM

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View PostOwieczek, on 30 September 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Obviously, you have never worked on something really complex.
+1
The point is, auto aim already is in the game, for quite some time like they already said. The code is there, and for sure can it be altered by some other changes nobody thought about they would even be remotely connected.
It is true that features don't appear out of nowhere because of a programming error, but features getting side effects from other changes happen all the time.

Edited by djaxup, 30 September 2013 - 09:21 AM.


zmeul #289 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:23 AM

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View PostOwieczek, on 30 September 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Obviously, you have never worked on something really complex.
oh yes, I did
have you ever heard of "pilot error"?
same thing with programming code, it doesn't do what it's not supposed to do - the programmer is in control
now if you did it wrong, you get wrong results

yay for masking incompetence with "bugs"
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Renwor #290 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:32 AM

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Wiki says: "A software bug is an error, flaw, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways. Most bugs arise from mistakes and errors made by people in either a program's source code or its design, or in frameworks and operating systems used by such programs, and a few are caused by compilers producing incorrect code."

and thats how I understand the expresion software bug as well. If you have different definition of the word "bug" then this discussion can go on forever, to no avail.


 


zmeul #291 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:37 AM

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as always, wiki is wrong
bugs do not exist in the form it's described there
bugs in programming are only caused by hardware error/malfunction that leads to compiler mishaps or file corruption

rest .. it's human error

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Infineon #292 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:49 AM

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Well, it's commonly accepted practice to name "bug" the code parts and/or combinations that cause unexpected side effects. Although in perfect world programmer would simply foreseen such an outcome, and produce correct code/algorithm to simply avoid it, therefore yes, all bugs are created by human error.

djaxup #293 Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:55 AM

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some ppl just are tied to the illuminati train. Everything that happens does so on purpose of an evil superpower acting from the shadows, trying to make our lifes miserable. A company never makes any error just because someone botched it, it is all just a scheme... blabla

As long as I have heard the term it always meant basically "hidden error inside program code". Of course this boils down to an error somebody made.
A debugger does not fix hardware problems btw.

zmeul #294 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:06 AM

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View PostInfineon, on 30 September 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

therefore yes, all bugs are created by human error.
and what about the bugs created by hardware error?

"bugs" created by human error are not bugs, they're just that human error
you build code (faulty) for some plane's control surface and causes the plane to crash - what's that? a "bug" or human error
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SirKillsteal #295 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:09 AM

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View PostIvan_Kulbich, on 29 September 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Ok, after looking into our battle statistics I can confirm that we have more than 50% increase in hits/shots ratio. It's more that can be explained by improved mouse controls, and most probably is a new bug in the code, related to "autoaim". There is other possibility that include OP "sniper" skill of pilot, so we will go deeper in analysis.
Thanks to everyone who brings the problem to our attention. We will continue to investigate the problem this week, and push for including fix in 0.5.3.3 if suspicion confirms.

Thank you! Before the patch it was more difficult, hence more rewarding to play. It has become more of a "hack n' slash" game than a simulator that deserves to be the platform for e-sports. Please correct this and work your way towards DIFFICULTY. Remember the success of Demon Souls ...... the gaming community does not need, nor does it ask for more "XBOX-titles" for gamepads.

naksahdus #296 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:20 AM

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View PostExtincE, on 30 September 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Well it's simple.. If this bug makes the top of the server go down by 10-30% in each and every stat just because of an aiming bug, you should know you've removed too much player skills and oversimplified the physics and game mechanics. And guess what.. Almost every single ace pilot on this server went down 10% or more in winratio, 10% or more in survival rate, 20% or more in kills per death ratio etc, compared to their stats of the week prior to the patch release.

It's not clear yet, if you just need to readjust. Or did balance on good and bad players really chance. I did very well on saturday, bit worse on sunday.

But on game balance. Balance between good and bad players is very important thing. Good players can't be let to hurt worse players too much. There are different player groups, that need to coexist in game. Older, younger, kids, some who can't see well, or can't aim well with mouse/joystick. Balance between different user groups does not just "happen". It is designed. And it is very important for this games succes, to get it right.

I'm a bit worried good players might be doing too well. Boom & zoom is effective against those, that don't know it.

Game has dangerous "force multipliers" too. Plane skin with +5% speed, 120 octane consumable and engine pilot skill. They are, in this game, more like if you could buy added armor layers in World of Tanks. Big threat to game balance.

When WoT started, it had very little unbalancing stuff available. Gold ammo was gold only. Crew skills were repair, camo and firefighting, nothing more. Premium consumables only for gold.

For start of WoWp, after beta, there supposedly is largest group of players, who just wan't to open more planes for themselves. That is the hook, that keeps them playing. If "stat whorers" are given too much ways to play well, in beginning, they might be too powerfull. Even one lonely seal clubber, might mostly decide rounds outcome.

You CAN let better players hurt worse ones sometimes, but only within limits. No any player group should ruin the fun of any other.

And perhaps it would be wiser to play safe at start, and leave room for improvements. If large group already is getting 80% winrate, you can't later ad more stuff. Like chocolate and improved rations foods from WoT. At least all old ways need to be in very wide use to balance each other out in both teams.

Any current winrate for one betatester can't be considered final, and that it should be protected. Beta test's purpose is to find balance on these things.

Infineon #297 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:25 AM

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View Postzmeul, on 30 September 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

and what about the bugs created by hardware error?
"bugs" created by human error are not bugs, they're just that human error
you build code (faulty) for someplane's control surface and causes the plane to crash - what's that? a "bug" or human error
Water is oxidized hydrogen. Tap water is not a water, it is water solution of salts, minerals, chlorine, bacteria, etc.
Aren't hardware errors caused by human error, because that hardware was designed and built by humans?
OMFG... Don't be such a nerd, and stay on the topic, ok?

Edited by Infineon, 30 September 2013 - 10:26 AM.


ThrowingTracks #298 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:42 AM

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View Postnaksahdus, on 30 September 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

View PostExtincE, on 30 September 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Well it's simple.. If this bug makes the top of the server go down by 10-30% in each and every stat just because of an aiming bug, you should know you've removed too much player skills and oversimplified the physics and game mechanics. And guess what.. Almost every single ace pilot on this server went down 10% or more in winratio, 10% or more in survival rate, 20% or more in kills per death ratio etc, compared to their stats of the week prior to the patch release.

It's not clear yet, if you just need to readjust. Or did balance on good and bad players really chance. I did very well on saturday, bit worse on sunday.

But on game balance. Balance between good and bad players is very important thing. Good players can't be let to hurt worse players too much. There are different player groups, that need to coexist in game. Older, younger, kids, some who can't see well, or can't aim well with mouse/joystick. Balance between different user groups does not just "happen". It is designed. And it is very important for this games succes, to get it right.

I'm a bit worried good players might be doing too well. Boom & zoom is effective against those, that don't know it.

Game has dangerous "force multipliers" too. Plane skin with +5% speed, 120 octane consumable and engine pilot skill. They are, in this game, more like if you could buy added armor layers in World of Tanks. Big threat to game balance.

When WoT started, it had very little unbalancing stuff available. Gold ammo was gold only. Crew skills were repair, camo and firefighting, nothing more. Premium consumables only for gold.

For start of WoWp, after beta, there supposedly is largest group of players, who just wan't to open more planes for themselves. That is the hook, that keeps them playing. If "stat whorers" are given too much ways to play well, in beginning, they might be too powerfull. Even one lonely seal clubber, might mostly decide rounds outcome.

You CAN let better players hurt worse ones sometimes, but only within limits. No any player group should ruin the fun of any other.

And perhaps it would be wiser to play safe at start, and leave room for improvements. If large group already is getting 80% winrate, you can't later ad more stuff. Like chocolate and improved rations foods from WoT. At least all old ways need to be in very wide use to balance each other out in both teams.

Any current winrate for one betatester can't be considered final, and that it should be protected. Beta test's purpose is to find balance on these things.

OMFG

You want to be wrapped in cotton wool and feel protected dont you. Nature, survival of the fittest, adapt or die and become extinct.
If you truly believe in "lets all be equal, group hug" then maybe this is not the game for you This is a competetive "team" game played by individuals and you know what? we are all in it to win. I'm going to do every thing i can to beat you, use every trick i know to beat you, use every tool in my possession to beat you. Here's what Im not going to do - give you a chance.

Mochican #299 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:46 AM

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Don't expect a patch till Nov.  :sad:

naksahdus #300 Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:52 AM

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View PostThrowingTracks, on 30 September 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

OMFG

You want to be wrapped in cotton wool and feel protected dont you. Nature, survival of the fittest, adapt or die and become extinct.
If you truly believe in "lets all be equal, group hug" then maybe this is not the game for you This is a competetive "team" game played by individuals and you know what? we are all in it to win. I'm going to do every thing i can to beat you, use every trick i know to beat you, use every tool in my possession to beat you. Here's what Im not going to do - give you a chance.
:teethhappy:

You are free to try that. According to winrates I know more tricks.  :izmena:





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