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Oh ye little mind of Wargaming...

autoaim dweebs still cant hit

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AnuSuaraj #1 Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:29 AM

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So patch 5.3. is finally here. British planes look nice, there are more diverse maps now, and even game engine optimization has made the game a bit more smooth.

But...as is always the case, developers at Wargaming have decide to throw in a couple of curve balls that they "forgot" to mention in the patch notes.

So let's get cracking...

Aim assist is a strange term, and perhaps doesn't apply here, much like auto aim or aimbot. Wargaming's new system does not help you aim, you still have to do that yourself.
The system simply grants you more hits if your aim is just a bit off, so those players with shakier hands may still do more damage to the enemy plane than they would have in the older system.

Now, a lot has already been said about this new system by many of the playerbase, mostly about how it ruins the game by compressing the skill gap and also destroys WoWP's eSport potential for the long run.

All these claims are somewhat accurate. I say somewhat accurate, because one thing the raging players are not taking into consideration is the fact that for the game to become an eSport, it first has to become popular on a global scale and acquire a playerbase that reflects that popularity.

The reason why WoT could join eSports, even though it really wasn't the most eSports friendly game out there, was the fact that it was a very popular game with a playerbase in the millions. You first have to have people, lots and lots of people, that care about the game and only then can you start talking about eSports.

So I am guessing this is why Wargaming keeps implementing these "traning wheels" in form of reduced speed, unrealistic scaling, and now with 5.3. aim assists and collision avoidance...

I have been a tester for a long time now and have watched Wargaming fail one time after another, to simplify the game to at least come close to the level of WoT. The reason why they have failed, and will continue to fail is because in order to make WoWP as easy to operate as WoT you would simply have to ruin the game.

And therein lies the problem...

Because I am WoT player and I have to say that ever time I play WoT I really feel like I'm driving a real tank...I really do. Even with all the arcade elements in the game, the simplified spotting system, simple physics and damage system...I still FEEL LIKE I'M DRIVING A REAL TANK. So all the helpful arcade user friendly features in WoT are designed in a way that makes sure people still feel like this is a tank game based on skill and teamwork...

Even the Auto Aim function in WoT does nothing to damage the feel of the game, because the Auto Aim in WoT really doesn't account for much... I mean sure you can hit a tank that's not moving and isn't obscured by any obstacles, but it does absolutely nothing to help you against skillfully operated tanks in cover or in motion, and it also aims at the many body of the tank where armor is usually the thickest so with manual aim you can always penetrate more and do more damage. So once again, it is a interesting tank game that requires skill and teamwork.

So whilst the developers of WoWP might think that this simplification of the game may add to the growth of the playerbase in the future, I have to make the opposite claim and say that they are entirely wrong.

This will add nothing to the game, it will, in fact, ruin it completely.

Like I said, I have been present since early Beta, and as such I was delighted by the game Wargaming had in the begging. It was a game I had often imagined in my dreams... All those times I was playing drawn out flight sim conflicts and dogfights, I was hoping that one day there will be a simplified version of a flight game where I could just jump into a plane and play a quick but satisfying dogfight against human adversaries. So you could of course imagine my joy when I finally could play such a game in form of the WoWP Beta.

I loved it, every minute of it. Wargaming had something no one else had, and I have feared for a long time they would ruin it out of greed. That they would not be satisfied with a solid playerbase in the tens of thousands but would rather seek a fleeting base of millions...millions that play once and never touch the game again against a playerbase of thousands of active and faithful players that truly love the game.

World of Warplanes has failed with 0.5.3 even at that basic concept that WoT has because WoWP DOES NOT feel like a flight game anymore. It is now a game of mobile flying gun platforms that spray their unlimited ammo wildly in order to score a few aim assisted hits...

It is no longer an arcade flight game like WoT is an arcade tank game. WoWP is now purely an uninteresting Mario Bros.-like arcade that will not only never have the desired playerbase in the millions but will also lose its current playerbase of faithful thousands. It will unlike WoT depend purely on install - play once - uninstall type of players because this game as it sits now has lost all it's charm, has lost that thing that made it special, the thing WoT has had from the start, the thing WoWP has had in early Beta....

THIS GAME HAS LOST ITS SOUL!

And I for one will not play such a game. I will finish my Beta test to the end but if the game is released in its current state then I will not be there to see it fail.

And fail it will...mark my words all you greedy WG's execs, all you misguided developers. This game will fail because you have betrayed the principle the made WoT great, the principle that made earlier versions of WoWP great...

And that principle is: Sure...Make the game simple, make the game arcade BUT for the love of god don't forget to make it FUN and make DAMN SURE it feels like a tank/plane game.

There is an old Russian saying which has obviously not made it past the Belorussian border: "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." and you gentleman have certainly ruined a game that was good enough in your search of simplified perfection.

One truly disgusted Beta tester,

AnuSuaraj.

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Cheekibreekiivdamke #2 Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:34 AM

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Two things to say:

Amen,

and you are so totally right.

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Eviscerador #3 Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:54 AM

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Well, that is your point. I have talked with a lot of WoT players which tried WoWp before and now they are delighted, because they can get a few kills here and there.

For me the game is as fun as it was. The only problem is that I don't have to kill 6 or 7 planes myself because the other guys couldn't hit a barn side. But I will live with that. 3 or 4 planes in an average game are good enough.

And seriously, I haven't noticed any difference in hits. Afterall they have reduced the dispersion in low tier MGs, so I already expected hitting a bit more with them.

In the end, I don't care. With or without aim assist, I will keep playing the game and having fun. Skill is not just accuracy, is about tactics, 3D awareness and knowing your plane limits.

Deamon93 #4 Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:56 AM

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Totally agree with Anu, he got the point.


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_Grim_ #5 Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:09 AM

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Anu  got it completely right...sadly  :sceptic: .

Here is a sneak peak of the game 6 months from now,judging from the way this is going  :facepalm: .
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MXDoener #6 Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:13 AM

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View PostDeamon93, on 27 September 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Totally agree with Anu, he got the point.

Same here! As always, Anu is a real master of words and brings it exactly on point.

I feel very sad about the path they chose... If this path will be final, even I will be leaving the game after release.

WG...fixing stuff that isn´t broken since 2011! :trollface:


GeneralTelcontar #7 Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:33 AM

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Uhm...I didn't notice anything different in 0.5.3 with aim assist and collision avoidance, what did they change exactly?
Btw, my personal opinion is that this game lacks not only in terms of gameplay, I think it has the worst optimization I've seen in my life...and I played hundreds of games. Anyway, same as you, I'll play it till the end of beta to get tokens and then back to WoT to use those months of premium.

Edited by GeneralTelcontar, 27 September 2013 - 09:33 AM.


sharpneli #8 Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:53 AM

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The aim assist is a bit worse than just a help for bad players. It is an active hindrance to good players for one simple reason.

The situations where the aim assist does not predict the movement correctly (spirals, certain loops etc) make your plane immune because no matter how good aimer you are the aim assist will still forcibly put the shells to where it thinks the plane will be, in essence it is forcing you to miss.

What does this mean? Great players will optimize their evasive actions so that it maximises the chance of the aim assist to predict your movement wrong. It's no longer evading so that human has a hard time following you, it's evading to fool WG's algorithm. And if the algorithm ever changes we just have to figure out different ways to evade it. Also same will go to shooting. You no longer take a position where you maximise your own chances of hitting the enemy. You choose your angle of attack so that the autoaim algorithm predicts the enemy movements correctly.

Great E-Sport game, it's not PvP anymore but player vs WG algorithm when it comes to aiming. I can already imagine the casters "Excellent choice by Rommel2112541234_wittman, that kind of spiral fools the latest autoaim implemented in 0.6.4, we can clearly see that this player knows his game mechanics!"

Eviscerador #9 Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:00 AM

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View Postsharpneli, on 27 September 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

The aim assist is a bit worse than just a help for bad players. It is an active hindrance to good players for one simple reason.

The situations where the aim assist does not predict the movement correctly (spirals, certain loops etc) make your plane immune because no matter how good aimer you are the aim assist will still forcibly put the shells to where it thinks the plane will be, in essence it is forcing you to miss.

What does this mean? Great players will optimize their evasive actions so that it maximises the chance of the aim assist to predict your movement wrong. It's no longer evading so that human has a hard time following you, it's evading to fool WG's algorithm. And if the algorithm ever changes we just have to figure out different ways to evade it. Also same will go to shooting. You no longer take a position where you maximise your own chances of hitting the enemy. You choose your angle of attack so that the autoaim algorithm predicts the enemy movements correctly.

Great E-Sport game, it's not PvP anymore but player vs WG algorithm when it comes to aiming. I can already imagine the casters "Excellent choice by Rommel2112541234_wittman, that kind of spiral fools the latest autoaim implemented in 0.6.4, we can clearly see that this player knows his game mechanics!"
That is not different from us adjusting to the latest dispersion mechanics they implemented in 5.0. I loved the tactic of getting low, unseen and make a full boost climb into other plane's bellies and get them from below.

But I had to change that for the diving attacks and the altitude management we have now, because of the upward massive dispersion.

I agree with you that the aim assist will be tricky sometimes, but while spiralling and doing strange manoeuvres, you had to aim out of the aim circle to hit the other plane, so auto aim won't help.

All in all, aim assist will allow average players to take down average players (circling players, straight flight players etc) because once you start doing some evasive maneuvers not even autoaim will help.

Although I admit that HF and GAA will have a hard time against lights. But that was always the idea. Maybe they will increase rear gunner damage or accuracy to compensate.

Renwor #10 Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:05 AM

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Anu and Grim:  let's  bind the Anus text and Grims vid with golden lace and send it to ... whoever cares in Wargaming. (actually I hope forum moderators would do that for us)
Thats just about all there is to be said.


 


sharpneli #11 Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:32 AM

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View PostEviscerador, on 27 September 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I agree with you that the aim assist will be tricky sometimes, but while spiralling and doing strange manoeuvres, you had to aim out of the aim circle to hit the other plane, so auto aim won't help.

I think you misunderstood. My point was that now it's impossible to aim outside the aim circle. The autoaim will forcibly shoot there even though you yourself might want to aim bit outside to correct for some manouvre.

If the difference between aimcircle and the true aimpoint is large then it's still possible. But it leaves an quite often encountered area where it just ruins your aim. That means the autoaim actually works against good players that know how to aim even in weirder situations.

Eviscerador #12 Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:38 AM

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View Postsharpneli, on 27 September 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostEviscerador, on 27 September 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I agree with you that the aim assist will be tricky sometimes, but while spiralling and doing strange manoeuvres, you had to aim out of the aim circle to hit the other plane, so auto aim won't help.

I think you misunderstood. My point was that now it's impossible to aim outside the aim circle. The autoaim will forcibly shoot there even though you yourself might want to aim bit outside to correct for some manouvre.

If the difference between aimcircle and the true aimpoint is large then it's still possible. But it leaves an quite often encountered area where it just ruins your aim. That means the autoaim actually works against good players that know how to aim even in weirder situations.
I have to check that. I believe what you say, but I need to test the implications of such. After all, the aim assist only works in a fraction of bullets, not all of them.

To resume my opinion, I'm not against of features will assist average players so the game base is increased. IF such features won't mess my experience.

But thinks also this, aggressive evasive maneuvers have been buffed  :eyesup:

sharpneli #13 Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:49 AM

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View PostEviscerador, on 27 September 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

View Postsharpneli, on 27 September 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostEviscerador, on 27 September 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I agree with you that the aim assist will be tricky sometimes, but while spiralling and doing strange manoeuvres, you had to aim out of the aim circle to hit the other plane, so auto aim won't help.

I think you misunderstood. My point was that now it's impossible to aim outside the aim circle. The autoaim will forcibly shoot there even though you yourself might want to aim bit outside to correct for some manouvre.

If the difference between aimcircle and the true aimpoint is large then it's still possible. But it leaves an quite often encountered area where it just ruins your aim. That means the autoaim actually works against good players that know how to aim even in weirder situations.
I have to check that. I believe what you say, but I need to test the implications of such. After all, the aim assist only works in a fraction of bullets, not all of them.

To resume my opinion, I'm not against of features will assist average players so the game base is increased. IF such features won't mess my experience.

But thinks also this, aggressive evasive maneuvers have been buffed  :eyesup:

I'm also not against assisting the poor players. But the methods should be something else than bullets flying from the gun at an angle.

As an example it would be allright for me if they would make a mouse aim mode have an additional button which would then lock your plane to the aim lead point so that the AI would attempt to keep the plane pointing at the enemy.

AnuSuaraj #14 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:07 AM

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I am sorry Eviscerador but you are wrong.
This alghorithm will not help the bad players that much, just enough to make the game worse for the rest of us.
You see whilst bad and average players will still miss most of their shots and get owned by the likes of myself (my hitrate is now well over 22% and it used to be 11-12%), I on the other hand will not play a game where my oponent is an AI controlled plane that is assisted by a human at times.
And where I get slowly chipped away by sprayers that couldn't hit a barn without aim assist.
This also defeats the purpose of any evasion techinques and makes the ability the maneuver an airplane take a back seat to raw firepower and mindless spraying.
It also defeats the purpose of an MMO. And if I wanted to play bots I'd play a flight sim.
@sharpneli - I absoultely agree with you. There were a few defensive maneuvers in which only an experienced player could score hits (like shooting inside of the aim point of an enemy plane in defensive downward spiral for example) that are now quite less than they used to be. Both the act of these maneuvers and the act of aiming at planes engaged in such maneuvers are now way less relevant.
This is also a problem here:

View PostEviscerador, on 27 September 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Well, that is your point. I have talked with a lot of WoT players which tried WoWp before and now they are delighted, because they can get a few kills here and there.
I don't care about these people. Why? Because most WoT players will never like WoWP...
Why?
Because:
1. You cannot play WoWP drunk like WoT.
2. You cannot play WoWP REALLY drunk like WoT.
3. You cannot play WoWP if you're twelve and your motor skills are undeveloped.
4. You cannot play WoWP if you're FREAKING SH*TFACED!
These are the reasons why most WoT players will never join WoWP and frankly I don't mind it. Sure, your WoT friends like to play WoWP occasionally now, but how long will they stay and play actively? Will they play/like WoWP as much as WoT... I think not.
WoWP is a game entirely different from WoT and it is unreasonable for WG or anyone else to expect that these two very different games will appeal to the same audience. So what WG should be doing is try to make the game appeal to another type of the playerbase therefore increasing their overall playerbase and revenue instead of making two games that share the same playerbase...and the same revenue.
Secondly, I would like to elborate one more thing. The aim assist in WoWP is NOTHING like the auto aim in WoT for the following reasons...
Auto aim in WoT is a helpful tool that a player can choose to use (or not) but is still inferior to manual aiming therefore every Auto aim user is at a DISADVANTAGE against skilled manual aim players...
Aimbot in WoWP is something hardcoded into the game that the player has no choice but to use and even if a player could choose not to use it he would be giving an ADVANTAGE to aimbot users.
That is a big difference. And a reason why WoWP could never be an eSport in its current state.

Edited by AnuSuaraj, 27 September 2013 - 11:19 AM.

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Poindexter1 #15 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:18 AM

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Just a thought:
Is it possible that the auto aim is because most pilots and crew members now have 100% crack shot?
This is a crew skill that has not really been totally uncovered until just recently simply because first you need 100% pilot training, then 100% vision. Version 5.2 gave us the crack shot, But I expect that most of us were still working through Guru to have unveiled the shot skill. The closest I came to training it was 66% on 1 plane!
Now suddenly, everybody has 100% skill in shooting, including the rear gunner.
Now I don't know the parameters of this skill, but it stands to reason that if it can only be unlocked after 600,000 experience it must has some potency.

AnuSuaraj #16 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:21 AM

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View PostPoindexter1, on 27 September 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Just a thought:
Is it possible that the auto aim is because most pilots and crew members now have 100% crack shot?
This is a crew skill that has not really been totally uncovered until just recently simply because first you need 100% pilot training, then 100% vision. Version 5.2 gave us the crack shot, But I expect that most of us were still working through Guru to have unveiled the shot skill. The closest I came to training it was 66% on 1 plane!
Now suddenly, everybody has 100% skill in shooting, including the rear gunner.
Now I don't know the parameters of this skill, but it stands to reason that if it can only be unlocked after 600,000 experience it must has some potency.

Yes, I have noticed that the aimbot is more efficent on planes with higher crew skills and accuracy perks.

Still the aimbot affects all planes and guns to a certain degree.

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horus170485 #17 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:22 AM

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View PostAnuSuaraj, on 27 September 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't care about these people. Why? Because most WoT players will never like WoWP...
Why?
Because:
1. You cannot play WoWP drunk like WoT.
2. You cannot play WoWP REALLY drunk like WoT.
wrong and wrong.
my aim actually gets better after a few beers ;) while the rest suffers a bit
and wasnt it tomachine or someone else that always played drunk?
tailgunners are nice now, finally they are no longer useless weight in the back of the plane
the aim assist is kinda weird have to check it out this evening, yesterday i had hard times hitting with 37mm centermounted even when dead on target and close (as if aim assist was working against me), so i guess it really is just for machineguns

Edited by horus170485, 27 September 2013 - 11:24 AM.


AnuSuaraj #18 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:26 AM

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The tailgunners are stronger now, especially if you have a well trained gunner with all the perks. And I have no problem with that, it was a much needed improvement.

On the other hand the aimbot has to go...IT HAS TO GO!

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richie_b #19 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:40 AM

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Slightly confused by this thread. There are two videos of small amounts of damage being done that you normally wouldn't expect to be done & a couple of folks have seen their hit ratios increase. There is also a comment about low level aim assist for low calibre guns from WG.
In a few hours this has become armageddon.
Perhaps we should hold some horses & have a think about what we know & what we're extrapolating & what, of what we're extrapolating, is being extrapolated.
We don't yet know what this phenomenon is, so it is a bit early for this level of panic. It could be a number of things, but the thing it resembles most is a mild correction for low calibre machine guns.
That isn't game breaking.
Nor is it even all that annoying.
Why? Because low calibre machine guns are the preserve of low tiers. It might be annoying if you're seal clubbing, but a small aim assist for these guns isn't going to have any impact at all if no one is using those guns, ie almost every plane above t7. Even for the few t7s that do use low calibre machine guns, the impact is going to be marginal because of the relatively higher health pool.
For esports, at t10, there will be a grand total of no impact at all.
That doesn't seem worth of several threads & multiple pages on each thread, does it?
IF, this is the case (& it's a long way from confirmed that there is indeed anything other than a graphical glitch or laggy servers), then it would be self-removing training wheels that simply lessen the learning curve. How is that a bad thing?
EDIT: I should add that if it is full aim bot ness, I would agree that that would be very bad indeed, but I see no evidence of that

Edited by richie_b, 27 September 2013 - 11:42 AM.


Arkay93 #20 Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:41 AM

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I have to say that i indeed had easier times hitting an enemy and i have to admit that i wasnt the best at aiming and killing things in this game. But now at the end of every battle i have ensured that 1 kill will mine and im still disapointed, cus with this way i will never become better myself and it will be always boring to just spray almost at the plane and destroying it and im sure that a lot of new players will have a great enthusiasm but as great that enthusiasm will be another of that greatness will be on their phrase "ok we had fun lets go now" and thus the game will be with less  than thousand of players in a few months of its release. Even i, that i liked it alot in the start even if i was dissapointed with the Infinite ammo im already bored cus i know that in every game it will be the same thing hit and kill instead to have the taste of joy on killing with great manuvuers and getting satisfied with yourself succeeding killing with great aiming style. Im a fan and in love wtih games that are based on reality and making you feel like its real, WoT is an example but i cant say the same for WoWP. but who knows, its still in BETA they might rethink of it and remove it or make it even more realistic in the end the only thing i feel like i have to do is patience till its release. Great post Anu!
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