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Education for bad pilots

noob education help heavyfighters advice beginner

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Marine361y #41 Posted 13 May 2014 - 09:51 PM

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I agree with Tinc(not often that I do, unless it's choosing what underwear his girlfriend should wear:popcorn:) WG should carry some of the load, as it's in their interest to give decent training to new and old pilots. John has a good idea about one training module. Maybe the other modules should encompass such things as forming up, flying with a wingman, protecting GAA's, boom and zoom and turn fighting.

 

 

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Ottenheimer #42 Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:25 PM

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i think part of the problem is that the bots are amazingly bad.

 

also training rooms with missions might help on the very new pilots side for pointers but not really in random battles.

part of the problem aswell is that there is such a big difference in flying the different aircraft. really what WG could do is write specific help on each aircraft giving pointers on what to do and what not to do. 

to be honest i'm not sure there's alot of WG guys who can fly the planes better than most of the higher skilled players here.

something i dont think i've seen talked about is target picking.  in a random battle picking the right target makes more difference than what you are flying in alot of cases.. and knowing when to break off or knowing how many friendlys are near and what they are doing..  greed is a big issue aswell



Marine361y #43 Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:50 PM

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View PostOttenheimer, on 13 May 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

i think part of the problem is that the bots are amazingly bad.

 

also training rooms with missions might help on the very new pilots side for pointers but not really in random battles.

part of the problem aswell is that there is such a big difference in flying the different aircraft. really what WG could do is write specific help on each aircraft giving pointers on what to do and what not to do. 

to be honest i'm not sure there's alot of WG guys who can fly the planes better than most of the higher skilled players here.

something i dont think i've seen talked about is target picking.  in a random battle picking the right target makes more difference than what you are flying in alot of cases.. and knowing when to break off or knowing how many friendlys are near and what they are doing..  greed is a big issue aswell

Good point, the bots are useless, flying against live enemies is better as you add the human element to the mix, this also depends on how many join the training room, even if you teach 30 pilots and they take the training away and use it to their advantage that means 30 better pilots in the game which can't be a bad thing.:medal:

 

 

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Ulfhedinn_ #44 Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:55 PM

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View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 13 May 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't know where you did find about raising yourself above, but since you want to discuss, here it is.

 

Facts are:

1. Forum is being read by a single digit percent of players, EN part - a portion of that.

2. People reading the forum are mostly above average in the game, since they know what the forum is.

If lowskills use forum, it's usually a technical question about IntZ and ResZ placed in wrong thread, and that's all.

 

So try to answer to yourself, who is the target of your offer here, or how are you going to find real target for your offer.

 

And final straw:

3. Majority of noskills don't want to learn. Simple as that.

Looking at players list when the battle ends, most players still in the battle are those, who did something.

Free frags, HP donors, rammers and GT crashers leave immediately after becoming a frag, donoring HP, ramming or crashing.

 

Maybe you will find someone who wants to learn, but that person would learn anyway, you will push him on the learning curve just faster. Good luck.

 

As a newbie I'd disagree with some of that. I'd guess a lot WOWP's newbies are committed WOT's players who have premium time on WOWP's (from WOT's) and would be glad of having a decent hanger & reasonable competence in WOWP's, not only because it has the potential to be a good game in it's own right, but because it's free XP & various missions augment WOT's. Many of those people are used to the WOT's forum. As WOWP's newbies, the forum is bound to be an early & then regular port of call for them. And they are used to newbie help being available on / through forum - like the SG-TA Clan, it only exists in WOT's to help newbies (and it's very successful & very well-respected).

 

And I reckon the OP is right, I think there is a lot of disillusionment & resentment among the WOWP's newbies and lots are quitting, because aviation games are notoriously hard on newbies and because the lower tiers in WOWP's are flooded with vets who kill them so quick they don't have any fun and can't learn (which may not be the vets fault, and may just be because there aren't enough newbies to dilute the vets presence in lower tiers). For newbies playing against vets, every game is like the Great Marinas Turkey Shoot. And I guess that's why people resort to ramming, because those who've stuck with the game never got the space to learn to play in lower tiers so have ended up using tactics of desperation.

 

I think it's extremely positive that the OP (along with some other WOWP's forumites) are keen to help newbies. It's the kernel of what this game needs, a responsible community who want newbies to become long term players so WOWP's becomes a big success and sustainable, rather than everyone just seeing newbies as something to exploit, which is the impression you can easily get in game as a newbie facing nothing but vets all the time. So lots of +1 :-)


Edited by Maxmk6, 14 May 2014 - 12:28 AM.


ThrowingTracks #45 Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:33 AM

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An idea might be to spam the chat at the start of a fight an hour or so before you conduct some training in the training room. This might get some folk into training who might not read the forums and also get them on the forums for future training times.



Slauter #46 Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:23 AM

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Noble idea. Done this in a game i was playing before this one. Multitple times came to the point: what a fool you are. Anyway, i wish you luck with this. There are always grateful people willing to learn.

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jakub_czyli_ja #47 Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:24 AM

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View PostMaxmk6, on 14 May 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

As a newbie I'd disagree with some of that. I'd guess a lot WOWP's newbies are committed WOT's players who have premium time on WOWP's (from WOT's) and would be glad of having a decent hanger & reasonable competence in WOWP's, not only because it has the potential to be a good game in it's own right, but because it's free XP & various missions augment WOT's. Many of those people are used to the WOT's forum. As WOWP's newbies, the forum is bound to be an early & then regular port of call for them. And they are used to newbie help being available on / through forum - like the SG-TA Clan, it only exists in WOT's to help newbies (and it's very successful & very well-respected).

 

There is one problem in merging WoT and WoWP - time.

WG targets their products to people having purchase power, so those people simply can spend money in WoWhatever. Such people usually have jobs, and don't have much time to spend in one or the other game.

So if they would shift to WoWP, start practicing there, they would miss the goal - augment WoT - because there would be nothing to augment - no time to spend in WoT. So such people have to choose.

 

Other thing is that there aren't so many people like that - in my native language part of forum there are very few people asking about WoT-WoWP similarities, so some of your claim isn't valid - either there aren't many WoT players, or they aren't so much familiar to the forum. Verifiable in this section as well.

Never heard of such training clan, so it depends what you call a success. WG had an idea of training clan, but in general a clan in WoWP is only an idea, everything has to be organized by players, and it isn't right.

 

Forum itself is a kind of vent, where frustrated players can steam off, describing what is wrong with the game from their point of view, a last resort barometer what players think about the game, and as a kind of seed for players to organize.

 

View PostMaxmk6, on 14 May 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

And I reckon the OP is right, I think there is a lot of disillusionment & resentment among the WOWP's newbies and lots are quitting, because aviation games are notoriously hard on newbies and because the lower tiers in WOWP's are flooded with vets who kill them so quick they don't have any fun and can't learn (which may not be the vets fault, and may just be because there aren't enough newbies to dilute the vets presence in lower tiers). For newbies playing against vets, every game is like the Great Marinas Turkey Shoot. And I guess that's why people resort to ramming, because those who've stuck with the game never got the space to learn to play in lower tiers so have ended up using tactics of desperation.

Since WG introduced WoT developed way to protect newbies - missions count from tier IV up, and matchmaker changes, newbies are protected.

Thanks to WG I can't check now how much xp is needed to reach tier IV, but there are enough battles on the way to catch basics of energy fight and plane roles.

Basics of air combat are one wikipedia page, one page describing energy retention, if one wants to learn, it's just there to read. Applying energy fight to low tiers instantly moves a player on a learning curve to game average skill level.

 

Unfortunately this game has design flaws which don't encourage players to learn.

Existence of ground targets diverts players from fighting other planes to counterproductive attacking ground targets. Giving bombs and rockets boosts that. Low xp from attacking GT, AA guns stripping planes from HP doesn't divert from such actions. Even crashing on GT gives a 1 in stats and a mark on a plane. Marks on a plane are cool looking and thus important.

Similar ramming - it's not a desperation tactics. According to WoWP implementation it's perfectly valid tactics that player gets rewarded after successful application, with another mark on a plane.

 

I personally don't like those parts of WoWP, and believe that causes like these should be fixed (WG job) instead of curing the symptoms (players initiative).

Since voting by wallets seems to be the only working, the less players, the better. WG seems to be involved enough to try to fix the game instead of shutting it down, so decreasing number of players is a kind of motivation.

 

View PostMaxmk6, on 14 May 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

I think it's extremely positive that the OP (along with some other WOWP's forumites) are keen to help newbies. It's the kernel of what this game needs, a responsible community who want newbies to become long term players so WOWP's becomes a big success and sustainable, rather than everyone just seeing newbies as something to exploit, which is the impression you can easily get in game as a newbie facing nothing but vets all the time. So lots of +1 :-)

This game needs most of all fixes in design of things I described above and a kind of endgame, even so cramped as WoT has.

 

Possible outcomes of this action I see are two.

One is game-level statistically insignificant increase of player skill - good for that player, bad for newbies that hadn't chance. Bravo for the tutor and his young apprentice.

Other is much more fun - I think that it's quite possible that after lesson or two, one or few newbies will think that they got silver bullet to pwn in the game. And if they will be shot down it may be fun as ever else rage on chat.


Edited by jakub_czyli_ja, 14 May 2014 - 07:12 AM.


Broevaharo #48 Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:14 AM

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Perfect Idea Ottenheimer, imho there should be different training sessions for the fighters, heavies and the Gaa's (or if you mix them up, different coaches for each of them)

It also should be a sticky on the portal/start screen of the game (where you press connect) and, as Tinco already mentioned, some incentive to follow the trainings ---> a day premium, a gift plane, whatever

 

Anyway if you need any help just give a call


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Ottenheimer #49 Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:19 AM

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View PostBroevaharo, on 14 May 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Perfect Idea Ottenheimer, imho there should be different training sessions for the fighters, heavies and the Gaa's (or if you mix them up, different coaches for each of them)

It also should be a sticky on the portal/start screen of the game (where you press connect) and, as Tinco already mentioned, some incentive to follow the trainings ---> a day premium, a gift plane, whatever

 

Anyway if you need any help just give a call


awesome Bro!

 

much appriciated! i think this will work out just fine with all the awesome people who support it!

 



CLISSEFIGE #50 Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:15 AM

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I'm ready to help.

I can be available for one  evening or afternoon like wednesday to help training the guys.

I also can post something for the french guys about this idea .

I will also contact some of my greek friends here I'm sure they will be happy. 


                                     

                                                                                                                                           

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Zakne #51 Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:34 AM

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Nice Idea Otto, 

Maybe you should create some xls file or new topic with list how many "newbies" want to join. ;)



King_ExtincE #52 Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:41 PM

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maybe this replay can serve some educational purposes?

Honestly one of the saddest matches i've been in: https://www.dropbox....ever.wowpreplay


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Rhyo #53 Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:58 PM

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Nice idea. If you could get WG on board perhaps they could promote some such scheme. Many MMO games have players designated as 'Helpers', perhaps WG could introduce 'Trainers' and direct new players to find one (or as suggested, a special training clan).

Mickline #54 Posted 14 May 2014 - 01:39 PM

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@King : lol game, though i have seen worst really :tongue:

@Jakub : Man, your mastery of sophism is really impressive, i have yet to remember someone at your level, hats off.

 

I'll just repeat what i said in another thread some time ago, but the idea of a training clan can work. EvE online ( space game, mmo sandbox ) gives the opportunity to new comers to join training corporations (clans).

Those corporations are driven by players willing to help new comers. They have combat, industry, marketing, crafting, etc as regular class (yes Eve is more complex than a plane shooter).

CCP (EvE online developper) often advertises about it, and the nice side effect for them is that the retention rate of players joining those newbies corporations is higher than the retention rate of players playing alone at start.

If it works in a game like EvE, known to be one of the hardest MMO for new players, it surely can work here, at least it's worth the try.

 


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_Desper #55 Posted 14 May 2014 - 01:56 PM

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View PostKing_ExtincE, on 14 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

maybe this replay can serve some educational purposes?

Honestly one of the saddest matches i've been in: https://www.dropbox....ever.wowpreplay

This is example how noobs play, noone should play like this and this is not how to play 190 A-5. There is nothing in replay what anyone could learn and this is not how to play Boom and Zoom. Only sad thing on replay is terrible play of KE who even blame his team for his mistakes.



King_ExtincE #56 Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:02 PM

    You mad brah?

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I guess the word "bait" or the verb "baiting" is unfamiliar to you.

To illustrate, here is a video of the same plane on the same map but this time with a different intention. Having learned my lesson from the video I previously posted I try to carry it solo this time, instead of baiting the entire enemy team towards my own.

Sadly they have such a huge supremacy advantage that I just tried to get as many kills as possible out of it to maximize xp income but with close-to-even supremacy counter, I could've had some fun =)

https://www.dropbox....ouse.wowpreplay


Edited by King_ExtincE, 14 May 2014 - 02:16 PM.

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Ottenheimer #57 Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:28 PM

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I agree with Extince that videos are one way of teaching others how to play. i'm not sure if using this video would be good since i almost threw up watching it.. not because of peoples skill but because of the fixed camera on the plane.. how can you fly like that Extince? yiiikes!

 

but making some educational videos is a fine idea and something i've wanted to do aswell. 

some of the guys in the video that extinces follow could learn a thing or two about targets picking and switching targets. 

importance of not getting fixated on one target and picking the right ones at the right times.

 

i've already started a list of players who wants to help out with training and those who have already said they would join a training team aswell.

 

Guys lets please stay on focus and not comment more on the specific video, since i dont want this post to turn away from helping and training.

 

thanks



King_ExtincE #58 Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:35 PM

    You mad brah?

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I didn't mean it to function as a tutorial on how to play, rather the communication was actually good, just nobody did what they said they would. Team says we move to point A, so I move to point B to bring enemy team to point A, when I reach point A with 9 guys on my ass 3 minutes later, they're still all at point 0 and i'm baffled. So I bring them to point 0 and they still haven't got a clue whats going on. Not a single player in the team has glanced the mini-map in 4 minutes time.. So living up to your words and looking at the minimap to see whats coming at ya or being brought to you would be a valuable lesson to learn from the first vid =)

 

Regarding the camera, that's the only way your camera can function with a joystick. I get seasick from mouse camera :D


Edited by King_ExtincE, 14 May 2014 - 02:36 PM.

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Sturmi_0545 #59 Posted 16 May 2014 - 10:02 AM

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I like the idea, but your training room would have to be accessible through thehangar's ingame interface since most of the flying die hard vegetables in need of education would never even think ofreading news or forum topics. also we could use such a playerled trainingroom much more than another tutorial that only teaches you to find the WASD-keys und left mouse button...

 


 

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Ottenheimer #60 Posted 16 May 2014 - 10:43 AM

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View PostSturmi_0545, on 16 May 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

I like the idea, but your training room would have to be accessible through thehangar's ingame interface since most of the flying die hard vegetables in need of education would never even think ofreading news or forum topics. also we could use such a playerled trainingroom much more than another tutorial that only teaches you to find the WASD-keys und left mouse button...

 


Yep! thats the idea, some players who will help out in training rooms to give advice and help out.

i'm glad you like the idea.

 







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