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First Lieutenant
Visto che nel forum russo(su cui sto interagendo con dei giocatori russi interessati) fanno storie sull'inglese(dal momento che non conosco il russo è il mio unico modo di comunicare) ho pensato di creare questo topic apposta per poter raccogliere anche le loro proposte a riguardo. Per questo motivo userò in modo quasi esclusivo l'inglese ma, se per caso qualcuno di vuoi vuole intervenire, può farlo tranquillamente in italiano :)
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Edited by Federicuz84, 13 June 2014 - 01:55 PM.
First Lieutenant
Federicuz84, on 13 June 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:
Avevamo una parte dell'Europa in pugno, tutto mi sembra esagerato .
Comunque oggi ho finito i caccia, devo rivederli ma dovrebbero essere a posto :)
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Ok, let's continue
Deamon93IT (13 Июн 2014 - 13:28) писал:
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-The CR.42 flew the first time in May 1938 and entered service in early 1939. The specifics were sent at the same time though from the Ministry so, since Rosatelli and Gabrielli (the two engineers working on the CR 42 and G.50 respectively) worked at the same time i placed them where they are counting the technologies involved. The CR.42 isn't that far technology wise from the tier IIIs currently available and the CR.42 itself is just the final preset
May be, may be...
And I prefer form like this:
1) Picture
2) Firts flight
3) Airframe (need to choose) - basic, top
4) engine - basic, semitop, top
5) main armament
6) additional armament
7) maximum velocity
8) Sources
And tier 3 for Fiat is looking like this way:
Fiat CR.40 - but Wargaming use opposite: final airframe first. It means, that it may be called CR.42 with basic airframe CR.40
Fist flight - 1934
Airframe - basic CR.40, top - CR.42ter. Because in game it's maximum number of airframe modules. Differences - straight wing (CR.40 use gull-wing), another fin and others. And CR.41 may be premium - about this I'll talk later.
But variant Bis is acceptable: is the differences between it nad Ter in armament only?
Engines - when more modules, then more player spend time in game. Basic Bristol Mercury V with 525 hp, semitop Fiat A.59R (You know - on CR.40bis) with 700 hp, top Fiat A.74 RC:38: 840 hp.
Yes, You are right here - but we can use 3 engines
Armament - basic 2X12,7 mm sinchronized, top (42ter) - 2X12.7 mm sinch. plus 2X12,7 mm wing. Am I right? You 've written about only 7,7 mm wing. But Wiki talks about 12,7 mm in wing.
Powerful armament! 
Additional armament - only on 42: 2X100 kg under wing. But I'm sure, that 2X50 kg can be used - and we have faster aircraft. Amazing! CR.40 (42) can carry more bombs than grumman or Mitsubishi (2X45 kg or 2X30 kg). Imbalanced aircraft
Maximum speed - basic 378 kmph, semitop 388 kmph, top - 441 kmph. Superb aircraft - 3-th tier light fighters have 360-405 (basic) – 440-455 (top).
Sourses - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/cr42.html, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_CR.42, http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_fiat_cr40.html
Premium CR.41 - is it true, that it used 2X20 mm sinch.? And maximum speed was 405 kmph.
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-The G.55 and G.56 had just an issue: we never had the improved versions of DB 605 and DB 603 engines respectively. For those i'm considering the possibilty to use the versions currently available for the Germans. Both planes are able to handle the improvements of their respective engines and both would become much better overall. Think about the G.55 with the final engine of the 109G (2000 horse power) and the G.56 with the second engine of the Ta.152 (2300 horse power). In theory makes sense: both were liked by the Germans so it's plausible that they would have mounted better engines.
Agree, but there is no choice.
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-2x30 mm is fairly weak for a GAA, that's true, but the G.91R is a work horse able to carry up to 2000 kg of payload (4x500 kg bombs). I guess that the larger payload can easily compensate the lack of punch. The 4x12.7 mm machine guns on the prototype will be a bit weak but nothing major, counting the fact that it's compensated by a better performance.
MAXIMUM EXTERNAL PAYLOAd isn't importnant for light fighter!!! I hate fighters with bombs in battle!
Their purpose is to destroy enemy's aircraft, not ground targets!!
It means that we need powerful armament.
Yes, rockets are good (you can check may game profile on russian server) - but it is finite...
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-Doesn't change the fact that there isn't much between the 403 and the jets designed after WWII. SAI has the same problem of the French: relatively good amount of planes in low and high tiers but without any design to connect the two.
Agree, but we need to find only ONE aircraft, for 8-th tier, because we have a lot of Ambrosini projects. See here again.
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The Ca.165 turned like a brick, that's why it was discarded. In any case if it gives problem it could be easily discarded from the tree and implemented as premium. Probably it's the best option but, as for now, i'll leave it where it is (it takes nothing to copy / paste on the premium section ^ ^)
Yes, it is the one variant istead of Ca.301.
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-The Reggiane never had something related to this plane, it was never involved in such design (assuming it's true). Longhi did it all by himself and, since he said that the Re.2007 was true, i tend not to believe him unless proven otherwise (the Reggiane stated something similar)
May be yes - I've seen, that it was called as Caproni Re.2008. But there is information, that there was aerodinamic model also. I'm sure it was really project.
But Re.2007 was made to convince Americans that 2008 was based on Italian project and not on F-86 Sabre. I trust Merinda.
Edited by barkil_rus, 13 June 2014 - 02:26 PM.
First Lieutenant
barkil_rus, on 13 June 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:
Ok, let's continue
May be, may be...
And I prefer form like this:
1) Picture
2) Firts flight
3) Airframe (need to choose) - basic, top
4) engine - basic, semitop, top
5) main armament
6) additional armament
7) maximum velocity
8) Sources
And tier 3 for Fiat is looking like this way:
Fiat CR.40 - but Wargaming use opposite: final airframe first. It means, that it may be called CR.42 with basic airframe CR.40
Fist flight - 1934
Airframe - basic CR.40, top - CR.42ter. Because in game it's maximum number of airframe modules. Differences - straight wing (CR.40 use gull-wing), another fin and others. And CR.41 may be premium - about this I'll talk later.
But variant Bis is acceptable: is the differences between it nad Ter in armament only?
Engines - when more modules, then more player spend time in game. Basic Bristol Mercury V with 525 hp, semitop Fiat A.59R (You know - on CR.40bis) with 700 hp, top Fiat A.74 RC:38: 840 hp.
Yes, You are right here - but we can use 3 engines
Armament - basic 2X12,7 mm sinchronized, top (42ter) - 2X12.7 mm sinch. plus 2X12,7 mm wing. Am I right? You 've written about only 7,7 mm wing. But Wiki talks about 12,7 mm in wing.
Powerful armament!
Additional armament - only on 42: 2X100 kg under wing. But I'm sure, that 2X50 kg can be used - and we have faster aircraft. Amazing! CR.40 (42) can carry more bombs than grumman or Mitsubishi (2X45 kg or 2X30 kg). Imbalanced aircraft
Maximum speed - basic 378 kmph, semitop 388 kmph, top - 441 kmph. Superb aircraft - 3-th tier light fighters have 360-405 (basic) – 440-455 (top).
Sourses - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/cr42.html, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_CR.42, http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_fiat_cr40.html
Premium CR.41 - is it true, that it used 2X20 mm sinch.? And maximum speed was 405 kmph.
Agree, but there is no choice.
MAXIMUM EXTERNAL PAYLOAd isn't importnant for light fighter!!! I hate fighters with bombs in battle!
Their purpose is to destroy enemy's aircraft, not ground targets!!
It means that we need powerful armament.
Yes, rockets are good (you can check may game profile on russian server) - but it is finite...
Agree, but we need to find only ONE aircraft, for 8-th tier, because we have a lot of Ambrosini projects. See here again.
Yes, it is the one variant istead of Ca.301.
May be yes - I've seen, that it was called as Caproni Re.2008. But there is information, that there was aerodinamic model also. I'm sure it was really project.
But Re.2007 was made to convince Americans that 2008 was based on Italian project and not on F-86 Sabre. I trust Merinda.
-As far as the form is concerned there are quite a few problems:
I)Maximum speed of the stock? Because it's difficult to implement this data, considering the fact that it won't represent for all the same value.
II)At the moment i'm just using Wiki since i'm not able to do otherwise.
III)Airframe, engines and armament are already present in the modules section, should be enough.
-It's a typo, the Bristol V should be there yeah.
-The first planes ever mounting 20 mm cannons were the MC 202 or the Re.2001. Up until then the usual armament was just the pair of 12.7 mm Breda-Safat.
-Well the G.91R it's closer to GAAs rather than to fighters. In any case we'll see, it's early and i haven't worked on GAAs yet.
-Well all the projects on that topic are tier IX and X material, except the experimental planes
-If the Ca.165 goes to the premiums i assume i can link the Re.2000 to the CR.42 and/or with the other "serie I"(MC 200 and G.50), we'll see anyway(all depends on what the developer whink about the Ca.165)
-Doesn't change much. Reggiane stopped working on planes and the last project of Caproni before ceasing to exist was the Ca.193. It's highly improbable that Caproni spent money and time on a plane like the 2008 when they were lacking of both.
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Edited by TRAMPUS_rus, 13 June 2014 - 06:26 PM.
First Lieutenant
TRAMPUS_rus, on 13 June 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:
Gli aerei italiani arriveranno ora che c'è l'interesse nel server americano e, a quanto pare, anche nel vostro. Ovviamente non mi sostituisco a WG, questo è solo una bozza per aiutarli :)
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Edited by TRAMPUS_rus, 13 June 2014 - 06:15 PM.
Senior Airman
TRAMPUS_rus, on 13 June 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:
Agree
To Deamon (I'm busy - I shall answer later) - have You seen project IMAM Ro.67? Interesting. But only 620 kmph.
Sure, that in IMAM heavy fighters branch Ro.57 will take 5-th tier, and Ro.58 - 6-th.
But HF of 7-th tier have 670-680 – 730-759 kmph...
It means that Ro.67 can be premium - but only (again) 3X20 mm.
Also may be these matirials wiil be useful for You
http://alternathisto...kty-santandgelo
http://alternathisto...itel-ausa-mb902
I've seen them earlier but I've not found branch for them...
I've found Caprony branch only.
First Lieutenant
barkil_rus, on 13 June 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:
Agree
To Deamon (I'm busy - I shall answer later) - have You seen project IMAM Ro.67? Interesting. But only 620 kmph.
Sure, that in IMAM heavy fighters branch Ro.57 will take 5-th tier, and Ro.58 - 6-th.
But HF of 7-th tier have 670-680 – 730-759 kmph...
It means that Ro.67 can be premium - but only (again) 3X20 mm.
Also may be these matirials wiil be useful for You
http://alternathisto...kty-santandgelo
http://alternathisto...itel-ausa-mb902
I've seen them earlier but I've not found branch for them...
I've found Caprony branch only.
Never heard of the Ro.67. I have to check the IMAM's records although it's quite complicated.
In any case i'll check out the links you sent :)
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Deamon93, on 13 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:
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I)Maximum speed of the stock? Because it's difficult to implement this data, considering the fact that it won't represent for all the same value.
Yes, I know - but it's better to show any maximum speed of aircrfat. Of course, If we see 2 or 3 speed with various engines, we can show them. But in the most cases I write only one speed.
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II)At the moment i'm just using Wiki since i'm not able to do otherwise.
Wrong answer (joke)! Good vanger uses ALL possible sources.
For example, there are some interesting information about G.59 &61 here. Wiki contains not all - sometimes we need to use books (for example my full british tech tree is based on information from "Secret British Projects Fighters&bombers 1935-1950 Tony Buttler. Midland, 2004").
Vanger (in Russian he's called VANGOVATEL - from famous person Vanga) is person who wants to predict new aircraft or something else in game.
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III)Airframe, engines and armament are already present in the modules section, should be enough.
Agree, I know.
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-It's a typo, the Bristol V should be there yeah.
No, it's true - CR.40 had Bristol IV:
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-The first planes ever mounting 20 mm cannons were the MC 202 or the Re.2001. Up until then the usual armament was just the pair of 12.7 mm Breda-Safat.
No - CR.41 could carry 20 mm cannons.
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-Well the G.91R it's closer to GAAs rather than to fighters. In any case we'll see, it's early and i haven't worked on GAAs yet.
Disagree, it's close to fighter - big speed (1075 kmph - Il-40P has 954 kmph only...), high climb rate (30 mps), weak armament fo GAA.
It's fighter
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-Doesn't change much. Reggiane stopped working on planes and the last project of Caproni before ceasing to exist was the Ca.193. It's highly improbable that Caproni spent money and time on a plane like the 2008 when they were lacking of both.
But Roberto Longhi worked in Regianne - why can't we call 2008 by Regianne? It's Italian project - may be it's first real jet fighter project (swept wing, frontal air intake, pure turbojet).
First Lieutenant
barkil_rus, on 14 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:
Yes, I know - but it's better to show any maximum speed of aircrfat. Of course, If we see 2 or 3 speed with various engines, we can show them. But in the most cases I write only one speed.
Wrong answer (joke)! Good vanger uses ALL possible sources.
For example, there are some interesting information about G.59 &61 here. Wiki contains not all - sometimes we need to use books (for example my full british tech tree is based on information from "Secret British Projects Fighters&bombers 1935-1950 Tony Buttler. Midland, 2004").
Vanger (in Russian he's called VANGOVATEL - from famous person Vanga) is person who wants to predict new aircraft or something else in game.
Agree, I know.
No, it's true - CR.40 had Bristol IV:
No - CR.41 could carry 20 mm cannons.
Disagree, it's close to fighter - big speed (1075 kmph - Il-40P has 954 kmph only...), high climb rate (30 mps), weak armament fo GAA.
It's fighter
But Roberto Longhi worked in Regianne - why can't we call 2008 by Regianne? It's Italian project - may be it's first real jet fighter project (swept wing, frontal air intake, pure turbojet).
-First i prefer to finish the whole work, then i will patch it ^^
-Well i would love to have those books but, as for now, i don't have them. For the details i'll leave that kind of stuff for WG itself, i'm pretty sure they have plenty of people capable enough(and paid).
-Yeah my bad, wrong number ^^
-I doubt the CR.41 ever mounted 20 mm cannons. Moreover we never had them sincronised with the propeller: always either on the hub or on the wings.
-Well there are several GAAs faster than the ILs and/or less armed.
-Reggiane stopped working on planes after WWII because they converted the production for the civilian market(tractors and so on). Moreover there would have been traces of it on the archives if it was real.
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Deamon93, on 14 June 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:
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-First i prefer to finish the whole work, then i will patch it ^^
Ok :). And have You seen my HF tree? It may be useful for You.
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-Well i would love to have those books but, as for now, i don't have them. For the details i'll leave that kind of stuff for WG itself, i'm pretty sure they have plenty of people capable enough(and paid).
Yes, I'm lucky that could cheeply download Secret project of Luftavve, Secret British projects & others. Unforutently, Tonny Buttler hasn't written book about Italian projects yet...
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-I doubt the CR.41 ever mounted 20 mm cannons. Moreover we never had them sincronised with the propeller: always either on the hub or on the wings.
But we have sources that tell us it. And may be not sinchronised but wing mounted.
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-Well there are several GAAs faster than the ILs and/or less armed.
In REALITY. But there is the game and there is no way to replenish rockets &/or bombs during fight. It means that main armament is GUNS only. Ok we can attack grong target some times, but if IL can destroy it quicker what will aircraft be chosen? 2X30 mm is weak armament - can Fiat G.91 use attachable gun containers?
And some opinion abut premimus aircrafts.
Ro.41, Ca.114, AUT.18 & Ro.51 are ORDINARY aircrafts. Does it have something interesting - high speed, heavy armament?
Premium aircraft has to be interesting.
First Lieutenant
barkil_rus, on 15 June 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:
Ok :). And have You seen my HF tree? It may be useful for You.
Yes, I'm lucky that could cheeply download Secret project of Luftavve, Secret British projects & others. Unforutently, Tonny Buttler hasn't written book about Italian projects yet...
But we have sources that tell us it. And may be not sinchronised but wing mounted.
In REALITY. But there is the game and there is no way to replenish rockets &/or bombs during fight. It means that main armament is GUNS only. Ok we can attack grong target some times, but if IL can destroy it quicker what will aircraft be chosen? 2X30 mm is weak armament - can Fiat G.91 use attachable gun containers?
And some opinion abut premimus aircrafts.
Ro.41, Ca.114, AUT.18 & Ro.51 are ORDINARY aircrafts. Does it have something interesting - high speed, heavy armament?
Premium aircraft has to be interesting.
I still have to check your work, unless it's the tree present in the RU topic regarding this subject ^^
As the CR.41 i still doubt it. Italian pilots usually never carried wing mounted guns, even if they were just a pair of 7.7 mm machine guns. It took almost a decade to have a standard armament different than the two 12.7 mm nose mounted machine guns.
Sure but it would have four bombs instead of two. In any case it's a common problem: same of the Ju-87s and so on.
As the premiums are concerned the specifics sent by the Ministry didn't allow many interesting experiments. I simply collect as many planes as possible so WG has a list long enough to choose from.
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
Deamon93, on 15 June 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:
As the CR.41 i still doubt it. Italian pilots usually never carried wing mounted guns, even if they were just a pair of 7.7 mm machine guns. It took almost a decade to have a standard armament different than the two 12.7 mm nose mounted machine guns.
Yes, but CR.41, 3-rd tier premimum aircraft, could carry 2X20 mm as exeption. Becuse it's PREMIUM. Of course, somthing (maneuverability, speed, streght etc.) will be worse - You know Me.209V: high speed, but weak armament.
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Sure but it would have four bombs instead of two. In any case it's a common problem: same of the Ju-87s and so on.
Also I've made full Germat tech tree - and some of Stukas HAVE good armament. E.g. Ju.87D can cary 2X20 mm & gun (2X20 mm) or MG (6X7,92 mm) pods. Totally to 6(!)X20 mm (or may be 4) - or 2X20 mm & 12X7,92 mm. And Ju.87G can carry not 2X37 mm only but also 2X20 mm. Exellent!
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As the premiums are concerned the specifics sent by the Ministry didn't allow many interesting experiments. I simply collect as many planes as possible so WG has a list long enough to choose from.
We can and have to offer to WG interesting aircrafts - not ordinary. Becuse only INTERESTING (high spee, heavily armed etc.) aircraft could be baught by gamers. If I (not me personal, of caurse) can buy medium speed aircraft with casual armament using silver, why have I to purchase similar plane for gold?
Piaggo is cool, but AUT - not...
But... Some of them can be GIFT aircraft.
This is semi-free game - interesting stuff (plane, tank, equipment etc) costs REAL money, that's why Wargaming exists.
PS Oh no, I think as Wargamig personnel
First Lieutenant
barkil_rus, on 17 June 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:
Yes, but CR.41, 3-rd tier premimum aircraft, could carry 2X20 mm as exeption. Becuse it's PREMIUM. Of course, somthing (maneuverability, speed, streght etc.) will be worse - You know Me.209V: high speed, but weak armament.
Also I've made full Germat tech tree - and some of Stukas HAVE good armament. E.g. Ju.87D can cary 2X20 mm & gun (2X20 mm) or MG (6X7,92 mm) pods. Totally to 6(!)X20 mm (or may be 4) - or 2X20 mm & 12X7,92 mm. And Ju.87G can carry not 2X37 mm only but also 2X20 mm. Exellent!
We can and have to offer to WG interesting aircrafts - not ordinary. Becuse only INTERESTING (high spee, heavily armed etc.) aircraft could be baught by gamers. If I (not me personal, of caurse) can buy medium speed aircraft with casual armament using silver, why have I to purchase similar plane for gold?
Piaggo is cool, but AUT - not...
But... Some of them can be GIFT aircraft.
This is semi-free game - interesting stuff (plane, tank, equipment etc) costs REAL money, that's why Wargaming exists.
PS Oh no, I think as Wargamig personnel
Well the 209V has the original performance plus the armament from the armed version. At least the armament it's not invented out right, simply because there weren't 20 mm available at that time.
The Stukas wing aren't big enough to hold much armament, moreover they weren't supposed to(except the G variant). For a dive bomber having a heavy foward armament it's pointless, a 1800 kg payload slammed on a target during a dive attack hurts more than any kind of foward armament. That's why they remained with just the 7.92 mm up until the D variant which then got 2x20 mm(not 4 or 6, there isn't room). As the G variant it had just the 2x37 mm cannons, it was sluggish already and with more armament would have been worse.
As the premiums/gift planes i'm simply collecting as many as possible, it's up to WG decide which is what.
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
First Lieutenant
TRAMPUS_rus, on 17 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:
Il problema è che gli aerei tedeschi e italiani sono legati tra loro da un certo punto in avanti. Non è possibile non fare paragoni tra le due nazioni :)
Death from Above member
"Memento mori" roman saying
Senior Airman
TRAMPUS_rus, on 17 June 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:
Da parte nostra di voglia c'è nè tanta ma bisogna vedere wargaming, una bozza gli è gia stata consegnata
First Lieutenant
Sì avevo consegnato la bozza tempo fa ai dev. In ogni caso dal momento che è estate(per cui il mio tempo diventa più ridotto) non riuscirò a seguire bene tutto questo.
In ogni caso mi auguro che i poll fatti da WG e da altri giocatori siano tenuti in considerazione: per quanto riguarda qui e NA il grosso dei voti è andato al nostro albero per la prossima nazione. Non so in RU ma mi auguro che ci sia qualcosa del genere, del resto abbiamo qui delle persone che possono informarci su quanto accade là.
Se anche in RU il nostro albero vince nei poll direi che sia relativamente sicuro assumere che sarà effettivamente il prossimo, dopo aver rimpolpato gli alberi attuali ovviamente
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"Memento mori" roman saying
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