Jump to content


Me 109 K-14, premium plane proposal


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

_Poe #21 Posted 27 April 2017 - 04:58 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostElDefunes, on 27 April 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

 

Genuine picture? :facepalm:

In your record? :rolleyes:

Are you complete insane? :bajan:

Your posted picture shows a 1:48  modelkit of a modifed Me 109 K-4 from Hasegawa. :D

A Modelkit...  and everyone can see it, except you...

 

You discalificated urself so many times now, nobody can u longer take seriously. :facepalm:

U wrotes only bullshit.

Seems u lives in your own world.

 

 

The DB 605L had only 1700 HP.

Its a fact.

He had never more than 1700HP.

The Supercharger gives the DB 605L the same power on 9,5km high like the other DB 605 on 7km high, thats all.

Lol, 2000hp+.  You are so funny.

 

Try to read more than english Wikipedia. Because Wikipedia made a mistake in this case.

Or keep in ur dreamworld.

 

 

You showed everything historical about the plane? :amazed:

You showed only fictional bullshit of this plane. :facepalm:

You dont knew the horsepower of a DB 605L. :bajan:

You believed black/white filterd pictures of a modelkit were genuine pictures.:facepalm:

And u talked about fictional internet-bullshit it would be true and historical. :rolleyes:

 

And then u ask me its everything ok?  LOL

 

Please try to take a doctor....

Unbelievable.

 

After this show of you. Nobody on Wargaming will only think one second about your idea.

Embarrassing.

 

​What plane is this?

 

Me 109 K-14.

 

​What engine is this?

DB 605 L two-stage supercharger, 2000+ PS..https://en.wikipedia...ler-Benz_DB_605
 
-it was advanced derivate of DB 605 D-  Using fluid coupling with the engine, this engine  supercharger could vary boost smoothly over a considerable range.Engine adjustment  were handled automatically by a barometric-based control (difference from contemporary Allied engines). This freed the fighter pilot to concentrate on his opponent.It was a double-stage 3 gears supercharger engine. It have been probabaly most advanced suercharged pistoin engine built at that time.(and long after)
 
 
literature:
1. Ernst Heinrich Hirschel,Horst Prem,Gero Madelung, Aeronautical Research in Germany: From Lilienthal until Today,Springer 2012.

2.Bent, Ralph D. and McKinley, James L., Aircraft Powerplants, 5th Edition, McGraw-Hill, 1985.-

3. Christopher, John, The Race for Hitler’s X-Planes Britain’s 1945 Mission to Capture Secret Luftwaffe Technology, History Press, 2013.

4.Gunston, Bill, Development of Piston Aero Engines, 2nd ed., Haynes Publishing, 2006.

5. Wisniewski, Jason R., Powering the Luftwaffe: German Aero Engines of World War II, FriesenPress, 2013.

.....................................................................................................................................

 

​I am here far shorter time than you, in fact fully activated on this forum just month or 2 ago after been causal player for 2 years.

 

I asked myself what could be wrong with this  game, its such a great game but something is dragging it, something, illusive inertion.

 

Can not undestand  you , this is sad epilogue, you should act as enlightment , not as  the inquisition .

 

But, as Galilleo said : E pur si muove

 

 

 

 


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 05:54 PM.


ElDefunes #22 Posted 27 April 2017 - 05:56 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Alpha Tester
  • 10383 battles
  • 2,183
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

 

​What plane this is?

 

 

Here is my recently finished 1/48 scale Hasegawa Bf 109K-4, as you can see this K-4 was built as a rare Daimler-Benz DB605L powered 109 complete with the four bladed propeller and larger supercharger intake.

 

So its a Modelkit of a K-4 with scratched propeller.

 

 

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

 

What engine is this?

DB 605 L two-stage supercharger, 2000+ PS..https://en.wikipedia...ler-Benz_DB_605
-it was advanced derivate of DB 605 D-  Using fluid coupling with the engine, this engine  supercharger could vary boost smoothly over a considerable range.Engine adjustment  were handled automatically by a barometric-based control (difference from contemporary Allied engines). This freed the fighter pilot to concentrate on his opponent.It was a double-stage 3 gears supercharger engine. It have been probabaly most advanced suercharged pistoin engine built at that time.(and long after)
 
literature:
Bent, Ralph D. and McKinley, James L., Aircraft Powerplants, 5th Edition, McGraw-Hill, 1985.
Christopher, John, The Race for Hitler’s X-Planes Britain’s 1945 Mission to Capture Secret Luftwaffe Technology, History Press, 2013.
Gunston, Bill, Development of Piston Aero Engines, 2nd ed., Haynes Publishing, 2006.
Wisniewski, Jason R., Powering the Luftwaffe: German Aero Engines of World War II, FriesenPress, 2013.

.....................................................................................................................................

 

 

 

I wrote to u english Wikipedia entry is completely wrong, why u post the Wikipedia entry?

 

The real horespower is 1700.

 

 

More and more i believe you are not normal...

 


Edited by ElDefunes, 27 April 2017 - 05:59 PM.


_Poe #23 Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:01 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostElDefunes, on 27 April 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

 

Here is my recently finished 1/48 scale Hasegawa Bf 109K-4, as you can see this K-4 was built as a rare Daimler-Benz DB605L powered 109 complete with the four bladed propeller and larger supercharger intake.

 

So its a Modelkit of a K-4 with scratched propeller.

 

 

 

​Look  I have just reached working temperature and will  press now even more on  details in science and engineering of the subject, and you know it is only time until its all set and done,

by which in a way we will do the work for developer to give them on disposition all technical data they need for the

 

new premium plane Me 109 K-14 (exp.)

 

​If they take the idea as  acceptable of course ( strange if someone even must think will this magnificant plane be a boomer, a hit).

 

I see you on German forum to, why are you  responding in here in a way that is so,....how would I say, not German?

 

We will continue, afteral this is most active thread on this entire forum in this moment, which is nice.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 06:38 PM.


OraoZoveKondora #24 Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:17 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3758 battles
  • 133
  • [DITO] DITO
  • Member since:
    04-16-2015
We want german pancake!!!!

_Poe #25 Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:40 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 27 April 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

We want german pancake!!!!

 

​Please wait in line.

 

Jokin you,  it will be cool, though its ugly plane .

 

Though  La-9 RD we are getting soon   also was not a miss of Kamchathka in original pics..

 

It can be "polished" for the game.


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 06:52 PM.


ElDefunes #26 Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:05 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Alpha Tester
  • 10383 battles
  • 2,183
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

 

​Look  I have just reached working temperature and will  press now even more on  details in science and engineering of the subject, and you know it is only time until its all set and done,

by which in a way we will do the work for developer to give them on disposition all technical data they need for the

 

new premium plane Me 109 K-14 (exp.)

 

​If they take the idea as  acceptable of course ( strange if someone even must think will this magnificant plane be a boomer, a hit).

 

I see you on German forum to, why are you  responding in here in a way that is so,....how would I say, not German?

 

We will continue, afteral this is most active thread on this entire forum in this moment, which is nice.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

Are you complete stupid?

I wrote to you 3 times, the entry on Wikipedia is wrong.

And you qoute every time again Wikipedia. lol

Google it except Wikipedia. *faceplam*

 

DB 605L had 1700 HP.



_Poe #27 Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:14 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostElDefunes, on 27 April 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

 

Are you complete stupid?

I wrote to you 3 times, the entry on Wikipedia is wrong.

And you qoute every time again Wikipedia. lol

Google it except Wikipedia. *faceplam*

 

DB 605L had 1700 HP.

 

 

​I also cited you 5 books, of which I recommend First one, where you will  find, I cant post copy of a book in here..

 

Please post your references.

 
I am forced to post scans of the books and documents in here.
 
I hope  bear dude is not just master troll,
anyway.
 
 
 

 

Edited by Jahrakajin, 28 April 2017 - 07:01 AM.


OraoZoveKondora #28 Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:35 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3758 battles
  • 133
  • [DITO] DITO
  • Member since:
    04-16-2015

Wait wait a little.

While i had some irrelevant argument with POE i will now stand in defence of my countryman.

of course germany did not have it's own airforce in 1946. But it should not be a surprise for me if usa allowed some german pilots to join allied forces against perceived soviet threat.

It is no secret for decades that both usa and stalinland used many germans after ww2. Scientists and spies. So why not pilots.

 

As for specific plane scan the pages in the  book and post here
,
 


Edited by OraoZoveKondora, 27 April 2017 - 07:40 PM.


_Poe #29 Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:36 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 27 April 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Wait wait a little.

While i had some irrelevant argument with POE i will now stand in defence of my countryman.

of course germany did not have it's own airforce in 1946. But it should not be a surprise for me if usa allowed some german pilots to join allied forces against perceived soviet threat.

It is no secret for decades that both usa and stalinland used many germans after ww2. Von braun, galen, operation paperclip...

So it is possible.

 

Thx bro. This is interesting story that can be easily refuted and denied, that is for sure. But some rumors  existed about that.

 

If you play World of Tanks, remember story about Germans sold one Tiger I tank to Japan, In game they brought Japaneze Tiger as Premium tank. Dit it happened? Who knows, there are rumors but not definitivce proof.

 

But  we should look will the "story", which will give a spice to the plane, be a benefit to the game?

 

Americans were always looking on efficiency, most notably in preservation of their  money, and manpower. Activating around 100 best German end-war fighter pilots to fly most advanced available version of most numerous  Luftwaffe Fighter , and for which they were trained for( production of Me 109 stopped but hundreds  of frames and planes were on the ground and in workshops), will be very efficient move. And "asking" German engineers to show them know-how in refurbishing developement and production  of in this case  advanced supercharged DB 605 L  engines with over 2000 h.p.. will be also perfectly according to US philosophy of motivating and using German egineering workaround on every field.

 

Of course this fighters , probably devided in small squadrons, will be under US command.American led  North Atlantic Cooperation (NATO)  as an idea was  in practice already there.

 

Myth?  Certainly.

Possibility that it existed as an idea by Americans, very likely.

Did this idea materialized? Impossible to find , if it is its in some military archive..

 

Technically,  this plane, Me 109 K-14 with 760 km/h and over 2000 h.p. engine was reality in  May 1945.(2 recorded), will it be "last Reich's piston fighter" or "first postwar German  fighter" is of course debatable.


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 10:59 PM.


OraoZoveKondora #30 Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:39 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3758 battles
  • 133
  • [DITO] DITO
  • Member since:
    04-16-2015

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

 

Thx bro.

we are still far from bros :P

Do not get mushy


Edited by OraoZoveKondora, 27 April 2017 - 07:39 PM.


_Poe #31 Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:10 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 27 April 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

we are still far from bros :P

Do not get mushy

 

:sceptic:​  hm, yup.

If reconciliation will be so easy as starting the fight.


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 08:11 PM.


jakub_czyli_ja #32 Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:45 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Conquest Member
  • 18932 battles
  • 7,748
  • [XII-2] XII-2
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Americans were always looking on efficiency, most notably in preservation of their  money, and manpower. Activating around 100 best German end-war fighter pilots to fly most advanced available version of most numerous  Luftwaffe Fighter , and for which they were trained for( production of Me 109 stopped but hundreds  of frames and planes were on the ground and in workshops), will be very efficient move. And "asking" German engineers to show them know-how in refurbishing developement and production  of in this case  supercharged  engines will be also perfectly according to US philosophy of motivating German egineering workaround on every field.

In fact - not really.

There was a panzer korps kept mobilized in British occupation zone, but in general using III Reich equipment, especially planes, in case of East vs West confrontation would be just a stopgap, until German soldiers would be switched to use western equipment just to simplify logistics.

You can take a tank and use it, like Soviets did with Panthers, but plane' engines are much more sensitive.

 

So there wouldn't be much development of Bf 109 line, but a wave of already in service Mustangs D, Thunderbolts, late Spitfires, Tempests, Meteors, new  P-51Hs and Supermarine Spitefuls to utilize production power until more jet planes available and later P-80As coming from USA would sweep numerous but inferior Soviet air force, also having trouble due to lack of high octane aviation fuel.


Clear cache/Skasuj cache: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%TEMP%\wargaming.net\wowp\cache"

 

And everything else/i wszystko inne: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%APPDATA%\Wargaming.net\World of Warplanes"


_Poe #33 Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:05 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 27 April 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

In fact - not really.

There was a panzer korps kept mobilized in British occupation zone, but in general using III Reich equipment, especially planes, in case of East vs West confrontation would be just a stopgap, until German soldiers would be switched to use western equipment just to simplify logistics.

You can take a tank and use it, like Soviets did with Panthers, but plane' engines are much more sensitive.

 

So there wouldn't be much development of Bf 109 line, but a wave of already in service Mustangs D, Thunderbolts, late Spitfires, Tempests, Meteors, new  P-51Hs and Supermarine Spitefuls to utilize production power until more jet planes available and later P-80As coming from USA would sweep numerous but inferior Soviet air force, also having trouble due to lack of high octane aviation fuel.

 

​I would like for all of us to understand we are talking about period from May 1945 to the August 1946.

 

In August 1946 as  already mentioned Allied Control Comission  decided that Luftwaffe including all production is to be forbidden.

 

Technicaly speaking American iniciative to allow some limited production (finishing assembly) and even getting airborne of some Me 109 K-14 piloted by the Germans under US command  was not  a violation of Allied agreements until august 1946.


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 11:01 PM.


jakub_czyli_ja #34 Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:10 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Conquest Member
  • 18932 battles
  • 7,748
  • [XII-2] XII-2
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Technicaly speaking American iniciative to allow some limited production and even getting airborne of some Me 109 K-14 piloted by the Germans became illegal act only from august 1946.

And before that it would be much easier to get a plane across Atlantic and to train a pilot to fly it than to try to find a team of engineers to finish a development of engine (Operation Paperclip), if possible due to occupation zones, then produce the engine, the rest of plane, deliver it to the unit, supply with fuel and ammunition and all other stuff and send it to the combat.

German supply chain was in pieces while allied was better and better.

 

Bf 109Gs and Fw 190s would be used till shot down or worn out, and after that replaced by US or UK produced planes.


Clear cache/Skasuj cache: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%TEMP%\wargaming.net\wowp\cache"

 

And everything else/i wszystko inne: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%APPDATA%\Wargaming.net\World of Warplanes"


_Poe #35 Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:23 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 27 April 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

And before that it would be much easier to get a plane across Atlantic and to train a pilot to fly it than to try to find a team of engineers to finish a development of engine (Operation Paperclip), if possible due to occupation zones, then produce the engine, the rest of plane, deliver it to the unit, supply with fuel and ammunition and all other stuff and send it to the combat.

German supply chain was in pieces while allied was better and better.

 

Bf 109Gs and Fw 190s would be used till shot down or worn out, and after that replaced by US or UK produced planes.

 

​We should presume that paralel system will be most efficient. I believe US had interest in keeping German know-how in that short period, and frankly for their own engineers to learn something more. It was mainly in the field of jet engines and rocketry of course, but twin stage suprcharged piston engines were also interesting for Americans as even those were more advanced than Allied (German ones had automatic staging while Allied pilots manualy changed "gears" of their superchargers, for instance).  Some 109 K-14 could have been finished ,or better to say existing Me 109  brought to K-14 standard relatively easily in that "interim" year if nothing else than for testing purposes and as I said keeping production and know-how on some minimum level.

 

BTW British inteligence documents are showing they thought as early as september 1945 that  there is real possibility of  armed conflict  with USSR in the next year (1946), which means US shared that opinion to..


Edited by _Poe, 27 April 2017 - 10:50 PM.


jakub_czyli_ja #36 Posted 27 April 2017 - 11:13 PM

    First Lieutenant

  • Conquest Member
  • 18932 battles
  • 7,748
  • [XII-2] XII-2
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

​We should presume that paralel system will be most efficient.

Bullshit.

There have to be at least two things to be parallel.

Only that in 1945 there werent - German supply chain was bombed to the stone age, and Germany were split between 4 occupation zones, so quite probably that there would be necessity to get some crucial parts from other occupation zone. If they would be available at all.

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

I believe US had interest in keeping German know-how in that short period, and frankly for their own engineers to learn something more. It was mainly in the field of jet engines and rocketry of course,

And that was Operation Paperclip.

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

but twin stage suprcharged piston engines were also interesting for Americans as even those were more advanced than Allied (German ones had automatic staging while Allied pilots manualy changed "gears" of their superchargers, for instance).

Really really needed in the advent of jet fighters.

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

Some 109 K-14 could have been finished ,or better to say existing Me 109  brought to K-14 standard relatively easily in that "interim" year if nothing else than for testing purposes and as I said keeping production and know-how on some minimum level.

Relatively easy like materializing non-existent engines in non-existing factories with non-existent fuel.

 

To stop your following delusions: try to do some real research and find out, where DB factories were located.

View Post_Poe, on 27 April 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

BTW British inteligence documents are showing they thought as early as september 1945 that  there is real possibility of  armed conflict  with USSR in the next year (1946), which means US shared that opinion to..

Another bullshit.

Churchill indeed was thinking about conflict with Soviets, but USA needed Red Army to defeat Japan, so it wasn't an option. And after defeating Japan there were no Churchill, there already was Attlee, and the only side that could start a war were Soviets.

Only that they had no A bomb, devastated country and in fact not enough power to reach Atlantic Ocean and invade England (lend lease did the trick).

 

So there were no way to materialize Bf 109K-14 at any moment after May 1945.


Clear cache/Skasuj cache: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%TEMP%\wargaming.net\wowp\cache"

 

And everything else/i wszystko inne: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%APPDATA%\Wargaming.net\World of Warplanes"


_Poe #37 Posted 28 April 2017 - 12:24 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 27 April 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

Bullshit.

++++

 

One K-14 crashed outside of the city Gieslingenthen in early may 1945. The other one is a mystery. I believe it survived, and was tested.

 

​About Me 109 production let  me remind you that this plane was produced in 35 000 + numbers.It is most numerous produced fighter plane in history.

 Its production facilities were spread out troughout Reich. Such was "decentralisation" of the Me production that after the war Czechs were able to produce Me 109 G/K version (Avia 199 serries) in the factories located just on their own small territory.

 

​So even a small Czech part of former Reich had capability to produce complete new Me 109-G/K's .Czechs however got a problem,  soon ran out of the DB 605 engines in explosion  in Krasne Brezno warehouse . So they found replacement engine....Junkers Jumo 211F  available for production again on their territory but with just 1340 h.p. and other problems. ..

 

​Your thinking contains  logical fallacy large as this picture below, my friend. Parts for Me 109 were available  all over the territories of the "bommbed to stone age" Germany and controlled territories..

 

​BTW I am surprised you guys didn't proposed at least  Avia 199 some of the versions, years ago you should have done at least that.

 


Edited by _Poe, 28 April 2017 - 01:12 AM.


jakub_czyli_ja #38 Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:04 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Conquest Member
  • 18932 battles
  • 7,748
  • [XII-2] XII-2
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View Post_Poe, on 28 April 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

One K-14 crashed outside of the city Gieslingenthen in early may 1945. The other one is a mystery. I believe it survived, and was tested.

 

​About Me 109 production let  me remind you that this plane was produced in 35 000 + numbers.It is most numerous produced fighter plane in history.

 Its production facilities were spread out troughout Reich. Such was "decentralisation" of the Me production that after the war Czechs were able to produce Me 109 G/K version (Avia 199 serries) in the factories located just on their own small territory.

Yeah, I bet they also decentralised engine production.

Did you check where engines were produced, or are you going deeper int your delusions?

 

View Post_Poe, on 28 April 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

So even a small Czech part of former Reich had capability to produce complete new Me 109-G/K's .Czechs however got a problem,  soon ran out of the DB 605 engines in explosion  in Krasne Brezno warehouse . So they found replacement engine....Junkers Jumo 211F  available for production again on their territory but with just 1340 h.p. and other problems. ..

Oh what a surprise - Czechs had exactly the same problem I'm showing you since few posts - engines.

 

View Post_Poe, on 28 April 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

Your thinking contains  logical fallacy large as this picture below, my friend. Parts for Me 109 were available  all over the territories of the "bommbed to stone age" Germany and controlled territories..

I'm asking you about one particular set of parts, called "an engine", because without that particular part there wouldn't be any Bf 109 K-14.

Just write, from where Americans should take the DB 605 L engines.

 


Clear cache/Skasuj cache: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%TEMP%\wargaming.net\wowp\cache"

 

And everything else/i wszystko inne: cmd /K del /Q /F /S "%APPDATA%\Wargaming.net\World of Warplanes"


OraoZoveKondora #39 Posted 28 April 2017 - 12:19 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3758 battles
  • 133
  • [DITO] DITO
  • Member since:
    04-16-2015
we are still waiting for the scanned pages of the book.

_Poe #40 Posted 28 April 2017 - 11:15 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Advanced Member
  • 3786 battles
  • 106
  • Member since:
    03-20-2015

View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 28 April 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

we are still waiting for the scanned pages of the book.

 

​.You have the references.http://forum.worldof...483#entry525483

 

 


Edited by _Poe, 28 April 2017 - 11:17 PM.





4 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 4 guests, 0 anonymous users