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Advice needed: the FW190 line


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Mr_Tayto #1 Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:56 PM

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I've been playing most fighter and multirole lines up to at least 5 (that's where the iconic early war planes are), and I find while I can play most just fine, I really struggle with the 190 - to the point I'm yet to have a game approaching what I'd consider 'good' in anything else.

 

What I don't understand is that I can do just fine with the XP44 and F4F, which I assume to be at least a similar playstyle. I can do BnZ when I need to but the 190 has neither the dive speed nor the power in the climb with boost to get away in the same way I'd do with the XP44.

 

What am I doing wrong?



Eviscerador #2 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:02 AM

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View PostMr_Tayto, on 15 November 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

I've been playing most fighter and multirole lines up to at least 5 (that's where the iconic early war planes are), and I find while I can play most just fine, I really struggle with the 190 - to the point I'm yet to have a game approaching what I'd consider 'good' in anything else.

 

What I don't understand is that I can do just fine with the XP44 and F4F, which I assume to be at least a similar playstyle. I can do BnZ when I need to but the 190 has neither the dive speed nor the power in the climb with boost to get away in the same way I'd do with the XP44.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

I find that multirole fighters are good at low level only. Don't try to climb and use your top speed in level flight to zoom in and out. Once you start climbing you will reach the optimal altitude limit fast and you will lose all your advantages in speed, while most fighter, specially US and Ger ones will retain them.

 

I rarely climb above 1000 m with any of my multipourpose (currently in tier 7 corsair, tier 6 Thunderbolt and tier 5 Fw190)



Mr_Tayto #3 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:40 AM

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That makes sense, thanks. How about avoiding the inevitable spitfire on your arse? In about 5 battles tonight in my new 190 I have been deleted within seconds by spitfires :(

PiotrSzut #4 Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:59 AM

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you hit and u run .....

Eviscerador #5 Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:27 AM

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View PostMr_Tayto, on 15 November 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

That makes sense, thanks. How about avoiding the inevitable spitfire on your arse? In about 5 battles tonight in my new 190 I have been deleted within seconds by spitfires :(

 

You have a boost three times longer than him, you have the same frontal firepower and more HP, and you have more speed. Just don't try to turn. Go in, fire, go out. If he turns and chases you, by the time he accelerates and get on your tail you will be out of range.

 

Of course if you are without speed, turning, and he dives on you, he did well and deserve the kill.



omglaserspewpew #6 Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:16 AM

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Or you could just cut the crap and say that 190s are underpowered and useless. You're not going to run from any Spitfire if it's played by a decent player. Maybe you can do it if you very carefully manage your energy, but that means you're not getting into fights for caps and are wasting your firepower. FW 190s are one-trick ponies now: you try to do as much damage as possible before you meet an enemy that has a clue and you die. As simple as that.

 

You should still play it as a BnZ plane, just don't expect it to be decent at it. If you want an advice on what to improve, I'd say situational awareness and target selection. Every time you have a plane with good firepower, but otherwise mediocre flight characteristics, your goal should be to know the positions of everyone who's dangerous to you on the map and try to surprise them, like when they're being occupied by shooting someone else. That means if you're diving into a furball, target spits first etc.

 

You could maybe also work on roll-based evasion, but unless you're using a joystick, you're screwed, because keyboard maneuvering was destroyed in 2.0. And evading by rolling means you're running away, and that's wasting time in Conquest. You're better off running just out of the cap zone and suiciding.

 

 



Mr_Tayto #7 Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:37 AM

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View PostPiotrSzut, on 15 November 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

you hit and u run .....

 

That's how I started to use it, but found that by the time I'd manoeuvred onto it's tail and fired a burst, I was going so slow that even full boost meant I was dead, or crippled before I could get away.

View Postomglaserspewpew, on 15 November 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Or you could just cut the crap and say that 190s are underpowered and useless. You're not going to run from any Spitfire if it's played by a decent player. Maybe you can do it if you very carefully manage your energy, but that means you're not getting into fights for caps and are wasting your firepower. FW 190s are one-trick ponies now: you try to do as much damage as possible before you meet an enemy that has a clue and you die. As simple as that.

 

You should still play it as a BnZ plane, just don't expect it to be decent at it. If you want an advice on what to improve, I'd say situational awareness and target selection. Every time you have a plane with good firepower, but otherwise mediocre flight characteristics, your goal should be to know the positions of everyone who's dangerous to you on the map and try to surprise them, like when they're being occupied by shooting someone else. That means if you're diving into a furball, target spits first etc.

 

You could maybe also work on roll-based evasion, but unless you're using a joystick, you're screwed, because keyboard maneuvering was destroyed in 2.0. And evading by rolling means you're running away, and that's wasting time in Conquest. You're better off running just out of the cap zone and suiciding.

 

 

I agree that this is the most annoying aspect of the current meta (at least for me). The plane is strong on the attack but so slow flying level that the almost irresistible urge is to boost so that you don't miss contributing to defence or attack. And running away means you're not doing it anyway, all for a measly 150 hp damage on something that can just turn out of your guns.



Eviscerador #8 Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:39 AM

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I suppose I still have to find a decent player yet. Sure I've been killed by spitfires. Sure I have killed more in return. I don't expect a multipourpose fighter to fight toe to toe with a dedicated fighter, that is not what they are for.

 

I guess if we follow your advice we will only play Spits and Zeros.

 

Boring right? I stopped leveling up the spit line because they are slow, and they can only turn. You can't run away, and if you are out turned or outrun (easy) then you are screwed.



omglaserspewpew #9 Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:58 AM

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Spits aren't fast, but they aren't horribly slow. Put engine tuning on them and engine guru skills on pilots and they're fast enough to hurt any other LF/MF, apart form V4, which is a useless plane. You don't need to catch and kill a P-38, you only need to damage it and force it to zoom, which makes the player waste time.

 

Let's not get too focused on Spits tho; the point of this thread is more in the fact that multiroles have become underpowered.

 

EDIT: since many veteran players left, mid tiers are actually populated with newbies and yes, you can currently make even underpowered planes work in a lot of matches, because there's noone with a proper clue on the other side. Wait till people become more proficient or old guard returns to those tiers and you'll see the real picture.


Edited by omglaserspewpew, 15 November 2017 - 11:00 AM.


Eviscerador #10 Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:40 AM

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View Postomglaserspewpew, on 15 November 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

Spits aren't fast, but they aren't horribly slow. Put engine tuning on them and engine guru skills on pilots and they're fast enough to hurt any other LF/MF, apart form V4, which is a useless plane. You don't need to catch and kill a P-38, you only need to damage it and force it to zoom, which makes the player waste time.

 

Let's not get too focused on Spits tho; the point of this thread is more in the fact that multiroles have become underpowered.

 

EDIT: since many veteran players left, mid tiers are actually populated with newbies and yes, you can currently make even underpowered planes work in a lot of matches, because there's noone with a proper clue on the other side. Wait till people become more proficient or old guard returns to those tiers and you'll see the real picture.

 

We will see.

 

I must say that considering the F4F, the XP44 and the FW190A1, the later is the worst for me, but just because the cannons are very inaccurate, the rifle MG are useless, and the 50kg bombs are no match for the two 500 lb bombs the americans can carry.

 

Give the Fw190A better bombs or more punchy cannons and it will improve the performance.



omglaserspewpew #11 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:44 PM

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A1 is in a really bad spot right now, yes. I still fly the A-5 for the lulz and nostalgia.

Edited by omglaserspewpew, 15 November 2017 - 12:44 PM.


Mr_Tayto #12 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:47 PM

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View PostEviscerador, on 15 November 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

 

We will see.

 

I must say that considering the F4F, the XP44 and the FW190A1, the later is the worst for me, but just because the cannons are very inaccurate, the rifle MG are useless, and the 50kg bombs are no match for the two 500 lb bombs the americans can carry.

 

Give the Fw190A better bombs or more punchy cannons and it will improve the performance.

Yeah, it does seem the weakest of the three, which is disappointing given it's considered one of the best fighters of the war. If it had the manoeuvrability of the 109 it would be just fine to play.

 

I did have a good game today though, only because i was left alone for 7 minutes in a cap by myself, repeatedly bombing and strafing destroyers in a bay. Luckily, when the enemy did show up some friendly fighters did too so I had some top cover.



jeff_peters #13 Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:42 AM

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View Postomglaserspewpew, on 15 November 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Or you could just cut the crap and say that 190s are underpowered and useless.

 

Wow dude. Maybe you should, like, stop giving advice while smoking that majestic toke. The tier 5 is bad and it always was. After that, every tier is very competitive.


Edited by jeff_peters, 16 November 2017 - 05:43 AM.

 

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omglaserspewpew #14 Posted 16 November 2017 - 06:20 AM

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"Very competitive"?? I think I'm not the one smoking here. But let me elaborate.

 

I've said it many times - planes with great firepower are great for stomping clueless enemy teams and also perform well when flighted up with a wingman who can clear your tail. So in a tournament play, they can be "competitive" in a well-set team composition. I know you guys play flighted up rather frequently, so of course you can make it work well. It's been a staple of DFA/JFF/JFA tourney teams for years, no?

 

But I'd never, ever take any of them into a solo random game if I wanted to complete any missions that require a win. And since I can't assume that everyone who's asking things on forums has a wingman at hand, that's the scenario I have to go with. I still love my A-5, it's the first plane in the game that I actually bought paint for. I still fly it in 2.0. But do I find it "competitive" in current random meta? Jesus Christ, no. I have to suppose that in any match I might meet your flight, for example. What can I possible do in that case?

 

Serously, Jeff, how does a solo A-5 player defend from a good enemy team? (And still have an impact in the game, so kemping high alts is out of the question.) Enlighten me.


Edited by omglaserspewpew, 16 November 2017 - 06:22 AM.


AlmaxGeddon #15 Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:38 AM

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A-5 is a great airplane I have 151 killed planes on 26 sorts it's one of the planes I enjoy more.
Maybe it was better before I don't know..but it's very fun2play

 

But use it as suggested by Eviscerator a few posts before


Edited by AlmaxGeddon, 16 November 2017 - 08:49 AM.


Eviscerador #16 Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:48 AM

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View Postomglaserspewpew, on 16 November 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

"Very competitive"?? I think I'm not the one smoking here. But let me elaborate.

 

I've said it many times - planes with great firepower are great for stomping clueless enemy teams and also perform well when flighted up with a wingman who can clear your tail. So in a tournament play, they can be "competitive" in a well-set team composition. I know you guys play flighted up rather frequently, so of course you can make it work well. It's been a staple of DFA/JFF/JFA tourney teams for years, no?

 

But I'd never, ever take any of them into a solo random game if I wanted to complete any missions that require a win. And since I can't assume that everyone who's asking things on forums has a wingman at hand, that's the scenario I have to go with. I still love my A-5, it's the first plane in the game that I actually bought paint for. I still fly it in 2.0. But do I find it "competitive" in current random meta? Jesus Christ, no. I have to suppose that in any match I might meet your flight, for example. What can I possible do in that case?

 

Serously, Jeff, how does a solo A-5 player defend from a good enemy team? (And still have an impact in the game, so kemping high alts is out of the question.) Enlighten me.

 

That's the point, it is not your main goal to defend caps, that is more of a fighter role. When I play Multi I usually just defend the cap the time it takes my bombs to reload, then I try to engage an enemy cap where they are not massing. Thanks to your speed you can go there, drop your bombs, kill some defence planes and head on pass the enemy fighters that come to help.

 

Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but I'm always in the top 3 in experience and combat points, and that is all that matters for me.


Edited by Eviscerador, 16 November 2017 - 09:42 AM.


jeff_peters #17 Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:44 AM

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View Postomglaserspewpew, on 16 November 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

"Very competitive"?? I think I'm not the one smoking here. But let me elaborate.

 

I've said it many times - planes with great firepower are great for stomping clueless enemy teams and also perform well when flighted up with a wingman who can clear your tail. So in a tournament play, they can be "competitive" in a well-set team composition. I know you guys play flighted up rather frequently, so of course you can make it work well. It's been a staple of DFA/JFF/JFA tourney teams for years, no?

 

But I'd never, ever take any of them into a solo random game if I wanted to complete any missions that require a win. And since I can't assume that everyone who's asking things on forums has a wingman at hand, that's the scenario I have to go with. I still love my A-5, it's the first plane in the game that I actually bought paint for. I still fly it in 2.0. But do I find it "competitive" in current random meta? Jesus Christ, no. I have to suppose that in any match I might meet your flight, for example. What can I possible do in that case?

 

Serously, Jeff, how does a solo A-5 player defend from a good enemy team? (And still have an impact in the game, so kemping high alts is out of the question.) Enlighten me.

 

Okay, I'll indulge you. 'Rador already wrote some good stuff in this thread that concerns the 190 in particular, so let me start with more general stuff first.

 

First of all, AFAIK no plane in the game has description like "can win battles single handedly against a good team". No plane can do that and to want that is, well, silly. True, there are some planes better than most (I-220 cough cough) but no plane in the game can deal with every situation. Now you might tell me "but jeff, you might be wise and all knowing but why tell me this?". Specialization is the key. Let's see what the FW is good at:

- it kills fast - good for capping

- it can take bombs and rockets - good for capping

- it has the firepower and those sweet sweet rockets to deal with ground attackers and bombers - defending sectors against some types of planes

So clearly, with the FW you want to cap neutral or enemy sectors and sometimes pick off the lone GAA or bombers. The FW specializes in these areas. In a dogfight you can use it as a support plane, but that's all. "So jeff, you magnificent stallion," you might say, "are you suggesting I use the plane's strengths to make it work?" Why yes I do.

 

More general stuff:

If you meet me in a flight, just do what the plane is supposed to do. There are between four and six objectives on each map and the flight simply can't cover them all. Of course rushing in like a headless chicken will get you killed. Why not try being sneaky and cap those places where the flight isn't (75% of strategic points)? I was playing in flights lately and we still lose battles and vast majority of losses were like that - the enemy team just out-capped us because we couldn't be everywhere. And that goes for every plane in the game.

 

Example of what not to do - I was in a flight with eekeeboo and we both had Yak-9U's. Map was old Plateau and we were holding 3 sectors and were defending the middle one. Now in the enemy team, there was a (former) uber pro player in a ground attacker. He went middle and we shot him down. We were very busy killing bots and players and he went middle again and we shot him down. We got busy again (still in the middle, mind you) and he went (I hope you see where this is going) middle again and we shot him down again. We won the game because we managed to hold three sectors while the enemy had two. It was a tough battle and we were very busy all the time. Now imagine that this uber pro player had a single operating brain cell and decided to cap one of the other two sectors that were almost undefended. And then fly off and cap another sector. The point is - sure, sometimes it sucks and your team fails badly, but there are always options you can try instead of some DESPERate (I honestly can't even call it that) "tactic".


Edited by jeff_peters, 16 November 2017 - 09:53 AM.

 

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omglaserspewpew #18 Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:54 AM

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View PostEviscerador, on 16 November 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

 

That's the point, it is not your main goal to defend caps, that is more of a fighter role. When I play Multi I usually just defend the cap the time it takes my bombs to reload, then I try to engage an enemy cap where they are not massing. Thanks to your speed you can go there, drop your bombs, kill some defence planes and head on pass the enemy fighters that come to help.

 

1. I didn't talk about cap defense. I talked about defense when good enemy players in better planes meet you in the sky. If you're gonna be running away from them all the time, you'll lose the match.

 

2. You do realize that T6 and T7 MFs aren't any faster than most of the LFs, right? And slower than HFs, right? What "speed" are you talking about, then?

 

View Postjeff_peters, on 16 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

... some DESPERate (I honestly can't even call it that) "tactic".

 

Heheh, thanks for the chuckle. :teethhappy:

 

As far as your advices about flying the planes go, I've of course known all of that and I really can't disagree with any, in general.

 

But that said, I still strongly disagree with your assesment of FWs carrying potential and some tactical considerations.

 

Block Quote

Why not try being sneaky and cap those places where the flight isn't (75% of strategic points)?

 

You know well enough that many of the maps feature crucial cap points that are disproportionately important, such as plants, rocket bases and command centers. And that's where you find the players who want to carry the match, so it's pretty much impossible to evade them for most of the match. This "capping other points" looks witty on paper, but very rarely works in practice. If the map has plants, you need them or you lose 95% of the time. Rocket bases are the most ridiculously OP class of the cap zone, because they're essentially uncounterable by any other means than attacking it head-on ASAP. Guess where that takes us? Sneaky capping only works on maps which are populated with garrisons and airstrips only. Or in case of some weird team compositions with many bombers and GAA, which don't occur often in current MM meta.

 

Block Quote

First of all, AFAIK no plane in the game has description like "can win battles single handedly against a good team". No plane can do that and to want that is, well, silly. True, there are some planes better than most (I-220 cough cough) but no plane in the game can deal with every situation. Now you might tell me "but jeff, you might be wise and all knowing but why tell me this?". Specialization is the key.

 

Specialization is another bombastic word that WG PR likes to flaunt with these days when teaching newbies about plane classes, yes. And in general, you should definitely first be doing things your plane is most suitable for. I don't advise going into turnfights with FWs or do high-altitude bombings with them, not at all. What you wrote above, should be priority. But truth of the matter is that in current random MM, you will be forced out of that comfort zone A LOT. If you rely on your team to do their jobs, you will lose, because most of the time, it falls on you, as a great player, to not only do your job, but do the jobs of all those who fail to do theirs. It's like that in every WG game, but I feel much more so in WoWp 2.0, because you're working against a running clock from the start. For FWs that means you need to rush caps IMMEDIATELY and use superior firepower to cap ASAP, thereby diving to mid or low alts and shedding a lot of energy that can't always be regained before you meet enemy players. It means you need to dive after GAA and use your firepower to prevent caps on plants, rocket bases or command centers. It means you need to rocket a building if there's only a sliver of points left to cap the zone. ETC. In FWs, that can mean a death sentence if a good enemy player is around, becase FW can't outturn a pregnant cow and can't outrun crap either. It's a lot harder to maintain rock-solid situational awareness now with respawns and atrociously illegible map. And if you do see the dangerous enemy and manage to run away, then he successfully blocked you from doing important stuff and he wins again. Conquest favours dealing with problems head-on and most of the sneaky tactical retreats to other caps waste too much time and cause a loss, no matter how smart they seem.

 

It's true, no plane can do it all. That's why flights are even more potent in 2.0 than before - not only are you superior to enemies in a straight dogfight, but you also have a tactical advantage with the right composition of different classes. And even then, some planes are just more suited for Conquest than others, because they can contribute outside their comfort zone a lot better than others. Why do Spits and TnB in general rule low and mid tiers?? Because a good Spit player will have no problems catching any of MFs and can even scare HFs away! I don't know if any of you hasn't read the new plane stats or whatever, but they were profoundly reworked and MFs were nerfed across the board in flight capabilities! A-5 is about a dozen km/h faster than Ki-61 and has a couple of seconds longer boost. LFs can traverse the map almost as fast as bigger fighters, can wreck mid-tier GAA well enough and give HFs a run for their money. Until player-controlled bombers become more numerous, the vertical space just isn't diverse enough to cut TnB fighters from a crucial part of the match. I-220s, as you yourself mentioned, can do almost everything short of throwing bombs.

 

But let's just put the most glaring problem on the table: the Corsair. It's as fast as a FW or faster, turns CONSIDERABLY faster, climbs faster and dives at about the same speed. It only has a tad lower firepower and ordnance is comparable, unless you put bombs on a FW. So, then, why would I ever wanted to fly a FW over a Corsair?

 

 

 



Eviscerador #19 Posted 16 November 2017 - 12:10 PM

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View Postomglaserspewpew, on 16 November 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

But let's just put the most glaring problem on the table: the Corsair. It's as fast as a FW or faster, turns CONSIDERABLY faster, climbs faster and dives at about the same speed. It only has a tad lower firepower and ordnance is comparable, unless you put bombs on a FW. So, then, why would I ever wanted to fly a FW over a Corsair?

 

 

 

 

Why would I play anything different than an Obj 140 in world of tanks? because sometimes I like to play different vehicles, even if I know that they are not the best in class.

 

Or maybe I like the looks of the FW190, and its historical relevance, or just because I play only german planes.

 

I play with the corsair MGs even if they are inferior to cannons, just because I like MGs and they are historical.

 

Still I don't have problems winning matches and having fun.

 

PS: I find funny you didn't bring on the table the Thunderbolt which I consider superior to both the Corsair and the Fw.


Edited by Eviscerador, 16 November 2017 - 12:11 PM.


jeff_peters #20 Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:01 PM

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View Postomglaserspewpew, on 16 November 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

But let's just put the most glaring problem on the table: the Corsair. It's as fast as a FW or faster, turns CONSIDERABLY faster, climbs faster and dives at about the same speed. It only has a tad lower firepower and ordnance is comparable, unless you put bombs on a FW. So, then, why would I ever wanted to fly a FW over a Corsair?

 

I like playing both. Corsair is disadvantaged in a head on and is much squishier and easier to damage - much bigger target. FW is much better at dodging and surviving in those oh sh*t moments where something nasty you overlooked is going all shooty shooty your way. I know the balance isn't perfect, but straight saying FW's are useless is just dishonest. In some situations the Corsair will shine, in others, FW will.


Edited by jeff_peters, 16 November 2017 - 02:59 PM.

 

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