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Complete randomness of win or loss


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Funny_Farmer #1 Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:31 PM

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I can't stand it any more. I rather like the 2.0 game mechanics, the respawns etc. but this entire randomness is slowly but surely killing it for me. Today I played three games, I finished 1st place twice and 2nd in the third game which is an achievement for a casual gamer like me. Slowly I have the impression that I really am becoming a support for my team. But loosing all three of these good games is really a setback, and more so it was obvious from about the second minute.

 

 

Now this is not intended a rant, how to solve this problem? I have the impression that bots are not the only problem, in one game 3 of the 4 last players in our team results were human. In the same game 2nd place was a bot in a Ju87G. Maybe the priority should rather be to balance the experience level of the human players.

 

 

Idea: Put human players into 3 WR categories based on their last 4 weeks. Then balance these per game. Would that help?

 

 

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Edited by Funny_Farmer, 13 February 2018 - 09:31 PM.


GonerNL #2 Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:23 PM

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Balancing or matchmaking taking into account the experience of players, not just the plane (tier) they are flying at that moment would certainly help IMHO.

Now everybody is just tossed together, humans and bots. If you're unlucky you end up in a team that gets the pilots with not a lot of experience and the bots without intelligence and the other side gets the über pilots and bots ... totally random. You end up no.1 or 2 but lose 4 out of 5 games.

WR means nothing ... also random. Apart from the really good pilots who are able to carry a team and get a WR of >70% !! I can often take 1st place or 2nd place it seems, but not carry the team and get a WR of 50.19% (and has been lower...)



Timewarp76 #3 Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:12 PM

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View PostFunny_Farmer, on 13 February 2018 - 09:31 PM, said:

I can't stand it any more. I rather like the 2.0 game mechanics, the respawns etc. but this entire randomness is slowly but surely killing it for me. Today I played three games, I finished 1st place twice and 2nd in the third game which is an achievement for a casual gamer like me. Slowly I have the impression that I really am becoming a support for my team. But loosing all three of these good games is really a setback, and more so it was obvious from about the second minute.

 

 

Now this is not intended a rant, how to solve this problem? I have the impression that bots are not the only problem, in one game 3 of the 4 last players in our team results were human. In the same game 2nd place was a bot in a Ju87G. Maybe the priority should rather be to balance the experience level of the human players.

 

 

Idea: Put human players into 3 WR categories based on their last 4 weeks. Then balance these per game. Would that help?

 

 

 

I can understand your frustration and concerns'. Since I've been playing I've heard this topic a few times, unfortunately skilled based match making is a challenge across all of the wargaming titles. World of Tanks and Ships have  been tossing this idea around for years and created the Ranked battle mode to fill this void. Although this mode fits some nitchs',  many of the casual player bases aren't too keen on it and that is why wargaming only runs these modes in seasons and not as a standard platform. The added challenge WoWP has is that the payer base is so small in comparison to WoT or WoWS the only other title smaller under the Wargaming banner is Total War Arena and add in that WoWP has cut a lot of their support staff anything extra right now just doesn't seem worth while. IMO I think that WoWP devs are trying to fix glitches and background crashes and get the game a bit more solid before they launch a promotional complain at least I  hope so.  I just wish they would communicate a bit more with us, other than the occasional Developers blog post.

 

 

 


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dreambill #4 Posted 14 February 2018 - 04:59 PM

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Skilled MM was a constant plea from the players of old version, (could had made it less hostile to newcomers), and was made clear that is not gonna be implemented.



britinmadrid #5 Posted 14 February 2018 - 05:09 PM

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Plus the fact that you really don't have the number of players to implement either skill-based MM or Ranked at the moment.

 

You'd just sit in the queue endlessly waiting for same-skill players or it would just have to throw teams together like you first described.

 

WG needs to fix the bugs, advertise the game and slowly increase its player base.



jakub_czyli_ja #6 Posted 14 February 2018 - 06:12 PM

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View Postbritinmadrid, on 14 February 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

Plus the fact that you really don't have the number of players to implement either skill-based MM or Ranked at the moment.

 

You'd just sit in the queue endlessly waiting for same-skill players or it would just have to throw teams together like you first described.

With split playerbase on 2 parts, you'd either have half players in lower tiers, like 3 instead of 6, or wait in the queue 4 minutes instead of 4.

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 WG needs to fix the bugs, advertise the game and slowly increase its player base.

And then again get 10k players only to lose half of them in 2 months? Sounds like a plan.

 


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jss78 #7 Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:50 PM

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Skilled MM is really completely non-viable with the player base. I've seen games do it with VASTLY more players in the pool, and the results were still dubious.

 

In a 12-vs-12 game you just have to accept that there's only so much a single guy can do.



Franco_Scala #8 Posted 15 February 2018 - 05:06 AM

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Oh, the peer-MM joke issue again. I'm not sure what's worse, the people that come on these forums making illiterate arguments for what conception of MM they think will work or the 'well, aktually' guys who turn up on political pages on Facebook making dubious claims about making some sort luxury space communism or extreme free-market libertarian paradise work by next Tuesday if only people would listen. I'm especially glad Jakub has turned up to propose his 'two-tier' MM solution again, that's always good for a laugh.

zen_monk_ #9 Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:52 AM

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Hey you skill-based MM guys, please turn on your brain.

 

Let's say they make two groups for MM, one below 50% and other for all of you hairy-chested-all-manly-booming-voice-oh-I'm-tough +50%-80% guys. Can't you see very soon almost all of you would go down to 50% or less?

 

:facepalm:



Spuggy #10 Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:52 AM

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You know, there is a way to stop the randomness of wins and losses.

 

The solution is simple.

 

 



jakub_czyli_ja #11 Posted 15 February 2018 - 05:01 PM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 15 February 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

Hey you skill-based MM guys, please turn on your brain.

 

Let's say they make two groups for MM, one below 50% and other for all of you hairy-chested-all-manly-booming-voice-oh-I'm-tough +50%-80% guys. Can't you see very soon almost all of you would go down to 50% or less?

Imagine that skill can be measured differently than by WR.


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FlyingDutchman69 #12 Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:23 PM

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getting rid of respawn  is a beginning

 



majid_HD #13 Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:22 AM

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last 24 hours was perfect ! I'm agree it's Random no matter how much you try


Edited by majid_HD, 16 February 2018 - 08:24 AM.


Spuggy #14 Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:36 AM

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View Postmajid_HD, on 16 February 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

last 24 hours was perfect ! I'm agree it's Random no matter how much you try

 

This proves nothing other than you're good at your aircraft's particular role.

Getting scores like this is easy in say, a light fighter, as the light fighters objective role is mainly defense. If you capture and then purely defend a heavily fought over position for the entire match but ignore the other objectives you will lose but you will score high.

 

This is where teamwork matters. You need to assist your team in capturing more objectives instead of holding just one very desirable one. A good case in point is the winter map where there is an airfield in the center and two garrisons or missile posts either side. Everyone for some reason tries to capture the airfield first and then holds it at all costs. This is a poor strategy. There are two workable strategies for this style of map.

 

Strategy One - Capture the Airfield and hold for as long as the enemy team focus on the airfield

Strategy Two - If you fail at capturing the airfield or flipping it soon in the game quickly capture the other two objectives. This is actually the counter to Strategy One.

 

What I am saying is this - Yes, you're playing very very well in your small AOO. But you might be missing the fact that the enemy is beating you by holding more objectives without you doing anything about that.



GonerNL #15 Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:00 PM

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View PostSpuggy, on 16 February 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

This is where teamwork matters. You need to assist your team in capturing more objectives instead of holding just one very desirable one.

 

Absolutely. And when there are more humans than bots, you can try to work together.

 

The problem is that on tier 7 or 8 (probably worse at 9 & 10) you often are the only human and the bots are not really cooperating most of the time. I'm in a IL-20 and announce an attack on a base, the bots all fly off to another target, preferably a factory while they are all in fighters and have no chance of taking it.

I sometimes watch the bots when I'm shot down after the squall and sometimes don't know whether to laugh or cry ... like a GA bot circling a captured base and ignoring enemy GA taking the base and even let them shoot him down so the enemy flips the base :-(



majid_HD #16 Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:56 PM

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View PostSpuggy, on 16 February 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

 

This proves nothing other than you're good at your aircraft's particular role.

Getting scores like this is easy in say, a light fighter, as the light fighters objective role is mainly defense. If you capture and then purely defend a heavily fought over position for the entire match but ignore the other objectives you will lose but you will score high.

 

This is where teamwork matters. You need to assist your team in capturing more objectives instead of holding just one very desirable one. A good case in point is the winter map where there is an airfield in the center and two garrisons or missile posts either side. Everyone for some reason tries to capture the airfield first and then holds it at all costs. This is a poor strategy. There are two workable strategies for this style of map.

 

Strategy One - Capture the Airfield and hold for as long as the enemy team focus on the airfield

Strategy Two - If you fail at capturing the airfield or flipping it soon in the game quickly capture the other two objectives. This is actually the counter to Strategy One.

 

What I am saying is this - Yes, you're playing very very well in your small AOO. But you might be missing the fact that the enemy is beating you by holding more objectives without you doing anything about that.

 

you completly right except one thing and that's I'm not a good pilot , I'm just a beginner, anyway tnx

 

yeah It's not good strategy to stay and defend too much and waste the time but the problem is I didn't do that  I went and tried to capture other bases but the bots stayed and engaged enemy some where wrong !  I knew the right strategy and even in most of my defeats I had attack aircraft so I couldn't do the wrong thing, I just attacked to destroyed ground targets and capture then attack to another base, I was the number one but my bots didn't nothing. the problem is you can't control the bots and have your own strategy, in 1.9 bots followed humans now they do what they want and it's random to have wise bots or idiot bots.

 

please test it and play late nights or mornings .when there's no human and your alone, it's a very good test which proves randomness of game, I don't mean win or lose is random, of course it depends on team strategy and what you've done. when I say it's "RANDOM"  I mean it depends on your luck to have a good team and bots or not !

 

if you have good bots (team) the do the right strategy and you will win even you play bad, and if they play poor it doesn't matter how much you try ...it's a defeat... in 1.9 it was good for me if I had a bad team! I could make 9 kills and win the battle but now after 3 min I know the end, when team is good it's a victory and when the team is **** no way to win ! in a good challenging game always we have a chance , I'm not telling that there's no chance always... yes some battles we could make a victory of a lose but it's rarely when teams are almost equal.

 

 



A_useless_noob #17 Posted 16 February 2018 - 04:12 PM

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I think WG needs to learn that being the top flyer of the losing team, gets boring pretty fast.

Spuggy #18 Posted 16 February 2018 - 04:50 PM

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But if you're going to blame all of this on purely bots making bad decisions you're forgetting a huge floor in your argument. The other team has exactly the same bots on it. And I mean exactly. Same number, same AI, same everything. So the other team bots must also be making similar decisions.

The only time I get frustrated with bots is when command centres send in waves of bombers and the entire flight just chase bombers. Sometimes dumb humans do too. So I guess they're just mirroring real life.

I'd like the devs who write the AI code to learn from the devs of EvE Online. There they studied how the players played the game and made the bots mimic their behaviour. After all. The players know best when it comes to these things.

Edited by Spuggy, 16 February 2018 - 04:51 PM.


majid_HD #19 Posted 16 February 2018 - 05:32 PM

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View PostSpuggy, on 16 February 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

But if you're going to blame all of this on purely bots making bad decisions you're forgetting a huge floor in your argument. The other team has exactly the same bots on it. And I mean exactly. Same number, same AI, same everything. So the other team bots must also be making similar decisions.

The only time I get frustrated with bots is when command centres send in waves of bombers and the entire flight just chase bombers. Sometimes dumb humans do too. So I guess they're just mirroring real life.

I'd like the devs who write the AI code to learn from the devs of EvE Online. There they studied how the players played the game and made the bots mimic their behaviour. After all. The players know best when it comes to these things.

 

I'm not agree, same number but not same Skill and AI.

if It was same in everything I had no discussion ...

no It's not same, different type , different skills... and even the neutral defenders are not same, some times the base near your team had good defenders and they resist hard , sometimes they are like a balloon...all of these depends on luck.

it is what I think and feel and  all I know is that many times the human player in other side had a poor result and I played very well so if the bots were equal I should win but defeat, even you can see it,usually bots go in two groups some times the enemy team capture the base near itself really fast but you have to go to the other base and capture it yourself, your bots can't capture alone, but opposite team capture both base fast. . .

 

briefly : if the bots were equal always (often) the better human player must win bot I see something else, I don't know, let's see what others think.

guys are you agree bots are equal have same AI and skills ?



dreambill #20 Posted 16 February 2018 - 05:56 PM

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No they are not equal we know this from previous version, the same happens here.

 






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