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Dr_Ar_MG #21 Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:01 AM

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Spoiler

my bots didn't capture anything. I had too do it all myself, and I wanted to be alive all the battle... I could win the battle, just I needed to die and teleport other side of the map but to be alive you need to cross the map engage enemies and it makes you slower. but why should I do all the things alone ? why the noob human spitfire won ? he's bots captured the bases in sec but for me ... I didn't see any "Defender bots" the where actually "Runner Bots ", they just run away and make you slower to capture. you should see my bots, my XF5U died in a head on attack against a Japanese fighter !! I said WTF... I knew that's a lose... I tried really hard 29 kills but the guy was choosen to be the winner by WG game noob protction mechanic.

I checked his profile and yes the guy registered 9 month ago

 

BTW... do you know how to have Predator medal?

but...I had 10 Assists,  where's my medal?

Spoiler

 



Moerdergrube #22 Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:01 PM

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And the next joke (btw it always the 1 st game) 

 

https://picload.org/...ot_106.jpg.html

 

It is impossible, that enemy holds always +1 target over the whole battle with this zero score. Stop manipualting games. Noone in enemy game did his job, but they take Targets. How? In the end the get mining plant too? Come on!



Moerdergrube #23 Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:45 PM

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https://picload.org/...ot_108.jpg.html

 

Se the bot Ostap? No bot plays like this, except the other human is below 50%. My bots didnt do anything. This is no fun. 5 Topscores, 5 losses. Go to hell, Persha! 


Edited by Moerdergrube, 15 April 2018 - 06:46 PM.


Dr_Ar_MG #24 Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:01 PM

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View PostMoerdergrube, on 15 April 2018 - 06:45 PM, said:

https://picload.org/...ot_108.jpg.html

 

Se the bot Ostap? No bot plays like this, except the other human is below 50%. My bots didnt do anything. This is no fun. 5 Topscores, 5 losses. Go to hell, Persha! 

too unfair

tier 9 vs tier 10+super attacker bot.

hey WG it was better to him defeat before the match started...



Franco_Scala #25 Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:08 AM

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One of my faves. Not naming and shaming the enemy human player, quite the opposite, they played a good game! However, I had all the suicidal bots for some some reason so every area I captured flipped back into enemy hands faster than I could fix the situation. I'm not caliming it was rigged, I see it instead as a 'compunding' effect of bot AI behaviours, the poop stacks or flows, and this is a textbook example of that happening. Otherwise fun match, so just a bit frustrating.

Franco_Scala #26 Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:13 AM

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This isn't here to shame the enemy human player, in fact, quite the opposite! Well played that pilot! However, this is a textbook example of the poor AI having compounding effects. Put simply, the poop can either stack or flow depending on composition. In the above example, despite both human players being quite a good match for each other and playing well, the AI on one team have an overwhelmingly positive 'stacking' effect of behaviours, the other an overwhelmingly negative stacking effect. For every area I recovered, my team bots committed yolo suicide in two others. For what it's worth, I don't consider this rigging and see no proof of it. Rather, as far as I'm concerned, it's the stacking effects of poor bot AI, with some matches being way worse for it than others depending on associated variables.

Edited by Franco_Scala, 16 April 2018 - 12:14 AM.


Dr_Ar_MG #27 Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:34 AM

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View PostFranco_Scala, on 16 April 2018 - 12:08 AM, said:

Spoiler

 

yeah , it's a very good example. look at the bar, the blue bar and red is almost equal so it means you played in a right way. 1 human vs 1 human but Beaufighter is a better plane and more personal scores...

obviously team 1 should win the battle... but look it's a super defeat , the red team killed all planes , they capture 4/5 sectors. 

 

tnx gods, all of them! if the game had more human players we couldn't undrestand the performance of the bots and compare them. but this proves bots are not balance..



jnishar #28 Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:27 PM

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View PostDr_Ar_MG, on 16 April 2018 - 03:34 AM, said:

 

yeah , it's a very good example. look at the bar, the blue bar and red is almost equal so it means you played in a right way. 1 human vs 1 human but Beaufighter is a better plane and more personal scores...

obviously team 1 should win the battle... but look it's a super defeat , the red team killed all planes , they capture 4/5 sectors. 

 

tnx gods, all of them! if the game had more human players we couldn't undrestand the performance of the bots and compare them. but this proves bots are not balance..

 

no.. if it was obvious whose team should win, then it was rigged.. that particular game was a close match..

The red team knew that they had to get that missile base, and he, the human, probably went after that at first chance..


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GonerNL #29 Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:58 PM

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View PostMoerdergrube, on 15 April 2018 - 06:45 PM, said:

My bots didnt do anything.

 

Sounds familiar ... to start with they always pick another target than the one I'm attacking (missile base, air base or HQ) and just go for the nearest garrison or airstrip. And they love the bomber-stream ... sometimes half of 'm is up there getting shot to pieces by the bombers and I'm outnumbered down there in every furball.

Moerdergrube #30 Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:09 PM

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View Postjnishar, on 16 April 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

no.. if it was obvious whose team should win, then it was rigged.. that particular game was a close match..

The red team knew that they had to get that missile base, and he, the human, probably went after that at first chance..

 

​They didnt know anything. :) This was a 1:1 human + bots and the score of the Ju 87 was manipulated. No JU 87 can do this. Btw! Franco and Ophomus played great battles. @Franco press alt before the scrennshot, the you see the score. This game wasnt close, ist a 800

Edited by Moerdergrube, 16 April 2018 - 03:13 PM.


jnishar #31 Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:24 PM

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View PostMoerdergrube, on 16 April 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

 

​They didnt know anything. :) This was a 1:1 human + bots and the score of the Ju 87 was manipulated. No JU 87 can do this. Btw! Franco and Ophomus played great battles. @Franco press alt before the scrennshot, the you see the score. This game wasnt close, ist a 800

 

you can see the two bars at the top.. its close. and like i wrote the human, probably went after the missile base at first chance. And the score the ju-87 bot made, is doable if he is left untouched throughout the game
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Clean #32 Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:41 PM

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Yes getting truly fed up losing but playing far better than the opposite humans. AI is undercutting my fun of the game especially at high tiers. The AI needs to become more intelligent.

Dr_Ar_MG #33 Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:09 PM

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View Postjnishar, on 16 April 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

no.. if it was obvious whose team should win, then it was rigged.. that particular game was a close match..

The red team knew that they had to get that missile base, and he, the human, probably went after that at first chance..

 

you must be in the battle instead of Franco too feel..

it looks a close match beacause Franco played as well as possible , some times enemies bot play so well , but It's not all for one team it's realy easy to capture bases, less than 15 sec base captured but for another them the defender bots (runner bots ) run away , even in a close distance when your on the tail of defender heavy fighter just 5% of you bullets hits, it's while if yuo were chosen as the winner in the same situation more than 40% of bullets hit. and they come to you and die, no run.

 

so It's obvious at after 1 min , now you have two choices , first play good and lose the battle with large difference, or like Franco's battle play hard and make it close defeat. in these cases you only win when the opposite player plays too bad, some times even this is not, no matter how much you try. you're a loser...

 

so don't tell us it was close combat... oh sorry... I forgot, you're the Mr' agree with all of WG mistakes ( even invation which WG accepted that it was a mistake) ... so go ahead. continue



Dr_Ar_MG #34 Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:26 PM

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this one was a 2 vs 2, we had 17.5k personal point and they had 16k both together.

Spoiler

my problem was that I couldn't be in two location in a same time ! 5 base captured and I did it too fast with my Do335.my team teammate did well.

in these case the problem is Do335 and RB-17 are not as fast as Spitfire and XF5U to capture.

if it was 1.9 when we saw we can't compete with them , we could run gain altitude as much as possible, the bomber do bombing and I escort him and boom and zoom.

 

many times when both teams have good pilots it's the Bots, unbalanced plane , and map that tells who's the winner. in 2 if I play against myself it's the plane,bots,and map but in 1.9 it was a draw 99%



Franco_Scala #35 Posted 17 April 2018 - 03:38 AM

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I had no intention of causing an argument with my post, I hope people understand that nothing I said was intended as inflammatory/edge lording/poor sportsmanship.

 

In that particular match I had to work my eyes and fingers to bleeding to make it 'close' - for a more novice player it would likely have been a rofl-stomp in Ophonous team's favour. So it wasn't a 'close' match, it was me doing my best to manage an unfolding garbage fire. Sorry I didn't take better shots, I didn't originally intend to use the screen-caps for this purpose.

 

I'm 'happy' to say I've also been in matches where I've been handed a win when the enemy players deserved a victory. I have literally seen up close and personal enemy bots solo-rushing a fully defended airfield, or 2-3 GAA's crashing into each other over a mining plant, literally giving away the win to the other team through sheer garbage behaviour. Let's not forget matches where you have secured everything and have all the advantages only for the bots to show no survival instinct, suicide into enemy formations, feed some bewildered sod on the enemy team a Kohzedub medal and a random victory....whilst you're left with a 17,000 point score, Ace/Marseille/McCampbell and your head in your hands. Again, I'm 'happy' to say I've been on both ends of this.

 

I'm not here to complain that Wargaming are rigging things to manipulate me or anybody else, nor am I being a bad sportsman. I'm simply trying to illustrate that you don't need conspiracy theories, accusations of hacking, salt/raging etc....it's pretty clear cut - the bot AI is absurd and most 'mystery' outcomes are actually pretty obvious if you look at what the bots are doing.


Edited by Franco_Scala, 17 April 2018 - 03:41 AM.


CloudyDante #36 Posted 17 April 2018 - 06:47 AM

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Now then I got so much to say. Forgive my mistakes English is not my first language so bare with me. I love the game had some really good games the short time I have been around, but there are some weird things going on that even I can't explain. I have had some game's where the bots would instantly take control of a sector and to make it worse the neutral bots dont all spawn on the sector you are trying to take. Now this means using your fighter to try and take ground targets out leaving you with a disadvantage as enemy had taken a sector and you now deal with ground targets and not doing role specific tasks. I do also find that flying in a flight to be much harder games than going solo, This is in my experience yours might be different. I also have an issue with my bullets not being able to register. This again have had a few complaints but I wont say much. Most troublesome I find is the bots going after you and chasing you like you stole its cookies it's really weird having a train of bots following you everywhere across the map as your own bots treat you with disregard and the ones following you wave at the humans and bots alike as they keep chasing you till they eventually get you. The other thing is experience reward doing role specific tasks. This really gets me, to win a game you need to sometimes do things that are not role specific and can cost you a lot in the exp department like shooting down a bomber wave. Good points but not good for exp but needed to save that mining plant from enemy control. This all could happen in just one match and it is frustrating and prolongs the grind and takes away the joys of playing. Something needs to change and bots need a rework as I said love the game but darn it sometimes even I get that wtf feeling

Edited by CloudyDante, 17 April 2018 - 06:51 AM.

 

 

ACE - Advanced Combat Envisioned

 

 


CloudyDante #37 Posted 17 April 2018 - 08:27 AM

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Could we get this moved to the reddit wowp aswell? There is a new community manager that acts between us and dev. This needs to be brought under his attention so we could hopefully get some feedback. 

 

 

ACE - Advanced Combat Envisioned

 

 


jnishar #38 Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:48 PM

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View PostDr_Ar_MG, on 16 April 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

 

you must be in the battle instead of Franco too feel..

it looks a close match beacause Franco played as well as possible , some times enemies bot play so well , but It's not all for one team it's realy easy to capture bases, less than 15 sec base captured but for another them the defender bots (runner bots ) run away , even in a close distance when your on the tail of defender heavy fighter just 5% of you bullets hits, it's while if yuo were chosen as the winner in the same situation more than 40% of bullets hit. and they come to you and die, no run.

 

so It's obvious at after 1 min , now you have two choices , first play good and lose the battle with large difference, or like Franco's battle play hard and make it close defeat. in these cases you only win when the opposite player plays too bad, some times even this is not, no matter how much you try. you're a loser...

 

so don't tell us it was close combat... oh sorry... I forgot, you're the Mr' agree with all of WG mistakes ( even invation which WG accepted that it was a mistake) ... so go ahead. continue

 

The blue team, which i assume was franco's team had the missile base just to their right. So if blue team went after that in the beginning and held on to that for the rest of the game, that side allmost allways is a sure winner. (this is btw one of the maps i hate the most)..

The other human player, which had a Gaa, probably also knew that he had to get that missile base, or hope that the missile base, or the enemy gaa, werent smart enough to go after their mine, which can win battles for the team holding it, especially if they have the chance to keep the entire game.. So if red were allowed to keep the mine and a garrison or 2 (they usually change sides throughout the game) thats usually enough to win because of the points the mine gives every 2 minutes (cant remember the exact time)

 

I really dont understand what you mean about the heavy fighter, or the "obvious" minute???

 

 

concerning me as "mr agree with all wg's mistake" If i cant see a mistake, then why would i agree with it?? and frankly speaking most of the problems in here are about "tin foil hats" or the crap about the game mechanisms (like aa) is to tough or crap people could learn if they really wanted to.. Some players have over 70 procent win rate! how could they have that if the game was rigged!

Edited by jnishar, 17 April 2018 - 01:38 PM.

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jnishar #39 Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:43 PM

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Here is a example of two humans doing a great job gunning  down the bots( well the spitfire atleast). And while the spitfire was concentrating on killing bots right in front our spawn points and the me265 capturing the mine, i captured our radar station, i even had to go down low and shoot aa's and wait until defender planes reappered. Enemy captured airfield. Then i went over to their mine, shoot down the me265, got shot down by f7f. enemys got the mine. our bombers got airfield, i started there, shoot down the human spitfire, went to the garrison got that, and while doing that our bombers after two attempts got their mine....

 

And this is a horrible map, this is also one of the maps i hate, but my point is, sometimes shooting down alot of planes is not the thing to do, but try to be smart, cap stuff... the spitfire should have tried to take garrison or radar station instead of going after kills after taking the airfield..

 

https://ibb.co/fBZHxS


Edited by jnishar, 17 April 2018 - 01:43 PM.

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Franco_Scala #40 Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:44 PM

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View Postjnishar, on 17 April 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

 

The blue team, which i assume was franco's team had the missile base just to their right. So if blue team went after that in the beginning and held on to that for the rest of the game, that side allmost allways is a sure winner. (this is btw one of the maps i hate the most)..

The other human player, which had a Gaa, probably also knew that he had to get that missile base, or hope that the missile base, or the enemy gaa, werent smart enough to go after their mine, which can win battles for the team holding it, especially if they have the chance to keep the entire game.. So if red were allowed to keep the mine and a garrison or 2 (they usually change sides throughout the game) thats usually enough to win because of the points the mine gives every 2 minutes (cant remember the exact time)

 

I really dont understand what you mean about the heavy fighter, or the "obvious" minute???

 

 

concerning me as "mr agree with all wg's mistake" If i cant see a mistake, then why would i agree with it?? and francally speaking most of the problems in here are about "tin foil hats" or the crap about the game mechanisms (like aa) is to tough or crap people could learn if they really wanted to.. Some players have over 70 procent win rate! how could they have that if the game was rigged!

 

​I'd prefer not to drag this out. We know how the map works but thanks for laying it out again. Remember, missiles launched from the missile base can hit ground targets at the mining plant, but if bots from the northern side then proceed to drift into that area one by one and get FUBAR-ed up, down and sideways they contribute points to 'resetting' the capture qualifier. So yes, the Northern side has an advantage, but if the bots suicide and feed resets, the missiles can flatten everything on the ground and still the mining plant stays in Southern hands and generates the points. Meanwhile enemy bots and enemy human were able flip the other capture areas time and time again, forcing me to triple up as GAA, interceptor and bomber hunter. It's painful discussing it this minute detail, we all know the game mechanics and how matches play out on these maps in victory and defeat. I must re-iterate to everybody; I was happy for my opponent to get a victory, he played well, credit to him - and, no, the game wasn't specifically 'rigged' to make me lose - the bot behaviour is a dice roll because of their basic priorities in the AI programming. ie. they tend to YOLO at enemy's if triggered to do so regardless of support or capability, they tend to crash into the back of each other or into buildings, especially when 'spooked'. When 'spooked', or when a 'priority' behaviour is triggered, they simply adopt a new vector to escape/perform it, even if other bots, human players or buildings are in the way. So, it's a dice roll in any given match. Well, by dice roll, we really mean a complex series of cause and consequence in the unfolding events of the match.

 

Imagine that each player rolls 5 dice for their team bot outcomes at each unfolding stage of the battle; sometimes both players roll a mix of 1's, 3,'s and 6's...and so long as both players are evenly matched, you get a reasonably close match. However, sometimes you get five 1's and the enemy get's five 6's. It's not rigging, it's chance. One team gets bots flying into each other and into buildings or going on suicide missions, the other team get's bots massing on lone targets and flipping/resetting caps for a win. It all depends on how and when their behaviours get triggered compounded by AI difficulty levels, plane characteristics, map asymmetry, presence/absence of bomber 'attack flights' etc.

 

Is it possible Wargaming have some tricks up their sleeve? Of course. Is there any hard evidence of this in this case? I make no such claim, and see no reason to go 'tin foil' when Ockhams Razor suggests developer incompetence and 'sod's law'.


Edited by Franco_Scala, 17 April 2018 - 01:45 PM.






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