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Concerns about Matchmaker

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eekeeboo #1 Posted 01 June 2018 - 01:12 PM

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Good afternoon all. I hope you're all prepared for the start of the event again. Further to recent discussions on various areas of social media and streams as well as these forums about theories on how matchmaker works, how bots are assigned and other systems. 

 

Matchmaker and the allocation of bots

 

Bots will be assigned based on criteria that will first check your tier of playing, will then look up against a table of how many bots to assign to each team. Once this is done a value is provided to assign the number of veteran bots, number of middle bots and number of easy bots. Teams will then get symmetrical classes and skills. First the mm takes all available players according to their tier, waiting time and class. Then it adds bots.

 

The only disparity between teams can be what bots are assigned to what planes. For instance, If you have a 1 player in a GAA on one team, in the other team it has 1 player in a light fighter. Then the bot skill level is not assigned or balanced against the skill of the player in the GAA.

 

Right now bot skills really work only for PvP classes - Fighters, multiroles and HF. It does not affect bombing and the rear gunner skills - there's a suspicion that their bot skill does not work correctly

 

Mm does not count anything connected with players skill. These mechanics are not even implemented yet. The MM knows nothing and does not take into account anything about your profile or player skill and game history at the moment.

 

Karma System

 

Recently I have heard various thoughts on the karma system and how it works. I have verified the current system works according to tiers; meaning if you had a battle with your own tier you get -200 karma (example value). When this value reaches -600 (example value). Then you're moved to +1 tier. Every battle with +1 tier adds +200, till your back to 0(N). This then continues as a balancing effect to ensure you’re not consistently +/- 1 tier from the enemy.

 

The karma system unequivocally, has nothing to do with your win/loss ratio, your skill or any other statistic than your current value (N) based on where you have been placed in a tier spread in your recent games.

 

If there are any other queries, questions or concerns, feel free to ask and I will try to get clarification for people. 



Sabbatex_KLR #2 Posted 01 June 2018 - 01:27 PM

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Got it. Just tell me again, do I shoot the red ones or the blue ones? O.o

eekeeboo #3 Posted 01 June 2018 - 01:38 PM

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View PostCyclonite_, on 01 June 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

Got it. Just tell me again, do I shoot the red ones or the blue ones? O.o

 

You forgot the white ones too.... 

CheefCoach #4 Posted 01 June 2018 - 01:40 PM

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View PostCyclonite_, on 01 June 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Got it. Just tell me again, do I shoot the red ones or the blue ones? O.o

 

You are shooting reds and whites, but if some blue is jackass, you can shot him too. You will get 0 experience but you will feel so much better. 
https://stats-sig.eu/wowp/CheefCoach/ussr/xs/en/sig.png

Horcan #5 Posted 01 June 2018 - 02:19 PM

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TBH , WoWp matchmaker is the best of all WG  titles theoretically, creating the most even teams as for plane types, and not having -2 MM. But due to low population and the presence of bots, sometimes is actually the most unfair of them all, because:

-many times it creates games with flight vs no flight. It wouldnt be a problem vs flights of mediocre players, but sometimes you end up vs 2 good people, with OP planes, as top tiers ( or sometimes your other human is just an ape that score less than 1k point the whole game and you actually fight alone vs 2 humans ). That games, i just tell them GG after couple minutes and leave the battle to start another, since playing till the end could mean at certain hours, that next game you will end up vs same people, if you start next one seconds after previous one.

-many times it creates games of max 3v3, but humans are not flying same types of planes, and often not even same tier. I dont think i need to tell you how unbalanced those games are, a bot will never replace a human that asses the situation and improvise, ofc he can shoot you with 100% accuracy from maximum distance , but overall it will only act according to scripts, and the human flying the bigger tier will dominate the game, in some cases being even the only plane top tier in that game.

-many times, especially in low human games, even if you are way better than the human counterpart, you might play a plane that is not that fast to move around from base to base, and even if you do play the objectives going from base to base, you just feel overwhelmed and no matter what you do, all the bases except the one youre at belong to enemy bots.Again , i dont think i need to tell you how frustrating this is, afterall people play online games to fight other people , not bots. I know thier presence is necesary because of low pop, but their influence to outcome should not be so big as to make humans that suck bigtime defeat humans who are very good. I know some balance should exist and bad people should feel that they have a chance, but this situation work more3 in their favor as i see it now. Most of the 1v1 2v2 i feel i have a way bigger hard time winning vs very bad humans that im supposed to.


Edited by Horcan, 01 June 2018 - 02:20 PM.

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Clean #6 Posted 01 June 2018 - 02:52 PM

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Do the names of the bots have any relation to the skill level Veteran/Joe Average/Mong? If I know who is good or bad then I can single them out as I would a human.

 

Will the AI be improved? GA bots just lemming into the middle time and again in straight lines. Good if you're defending, maddening if attacking. It would be nice if as a human player you could direct bots to appropriate targets or stop them flying into the middle over an airbase where they have little effect while the enemy bots are free to attack worthy targets. I think this is one of the key factors that games are lost with bots. Many a time I have absolutely smashed my human opposite numbers only to lose because of AI programming. There are some very imbalanced maps with Command Centers and Missile Bases. I've found that no matter what you do you lose because of bot behaviour usually around the middle being a clusterf***.

 

Maybe personal points, kills or damage etc should unlock a wing commander skill to allow you to direct a proportion of bot planes and add another facet of skill to this game. Alternatively create a commander skill to unlock. If we must have bots in this game then at least let us direct them rather than blindly suicide over and over again.



Horcan #7 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:00 PM

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For what i know, they already mentioned at some points bots names are random. As for AI , i simply dont care, bots should not exist in a multiplayer game, they lead nowhere but to conspiracy and rigging theories and i will never support or invest money in such games.But unfortunately, in this very case is impossible to have games without bots, since there was almost never ( and surely there wont ever be ) enough population to have 15 vs 15 humans.

LE: just the game i was talking about.

Posted Image

Posted Image


Edited by Horcan, 01 June 2018 - 03:04 PM.

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Clean #8 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:04 PM

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eekeeboo can you also please clarify base capture?

 

Many a time I have shot down attacking planes only to lose the base anyway. It was hard to tell if something blew up or a friendly was killed at the same time. The Blue/Red/White pie being eroded gives an idea to what is happening but it would be nice if on the kill feed some information was given regarding kills/ground damage and the points awarded for and against capture so that all can make sense of what is happening.



Clean #9 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:07 PM

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View PostHorcan, on 01 June 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

For what i know, they already mentioned at some points bots names are random. As for AI , i simply dont care, bots should not exist in a multiplayer game, they lead nowhere but to conspiracy and rigging theories and i will never support or invest money in such games.But unfortunately, in this very case is impossible to have games without bots, since there was almost never ( and surely there wont ever be ) enough population to have 15 vs 15 humans.

LE: just the game i was talking about.

Posted Image

Posted Image

 

But they exist and unfortunately greatly affect the game. So while they are a necessary evil lets improve them.

Horcan #10 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:20 PM

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The base capture is somewhat complex and there are cases where you dont really see and can explain how and why a side capture the base. To have an UI showing every action that lead to gaining advantage/capturing bases would fill hte screen with numbers and letters. There are many actions that switch capturing and all you can do is believeing they dont lie and games are not rigged.

The things that give/take point to capturing bases( i might forgot some):

-killing neutral planes/enemy defense planes/enemy players or bots.

-finishing group of buildings ( if you almost fully destroy an AA gun for example, but the last small house near it is taken by enemy, they will get the points, not you ).

-crashing/suiciding/killed by neutral planes also take from your points

-rockets from CC, bombers also give/take points and can capture bases even when nobody is around it (i think bombers dont even have a warning message when they deploy bombs like the rockets have ).

When all this happens while you are engaged in a fight its normally sometimes a base is capped inexplicably at the very worst moment when you think you were involved, but most likely some other action was what capped the base.

 


Edited by Horcan, 01 June 2018 - 03:21 PM.

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Clean #11 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:38 PM

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View PostHorcan, on 01 June 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

The base capture is somewhat complex and there are cases where you dont really see and can explain how and why a side capture the base. To have an UI showing every action that lead to gaining advantage/capturing bases would fill hte screen with numbers and letters. There are many actions that switch capturing and all you can do is believeing they dont lie and games are not rigged.

The things that give/take point to capturing bases( i might forgot some):

-killing neutral planes/enemy defense planes/enemy players or bots.

-finishing group of buildings ( if you almost fully destroy an AA gun for example, but the last small house near it is taken by enemy, they will get the points, not you ).

-crashing/suiciding/killed by neutral planes also take from your points

-rockets from CC, bombers also give/take points and can capture bases even when nobody is around it (i think bombers dont even have a warning message when they deploy bombs like the rockets have ).

When all this happens while you are engaged in a fight its normally sometimes a base is capped inexplicably at the very worst moment when you think you were involved, but most likely some other action was what capped the base.

 

 

Yes I am fully aware of all those points you've made. But still surely you've been in the heat of battle killed 3 planes in a row and thought WTF? The base has been capped. I agree that giving more data on base capture could be overwhelming but I would like to be able to see what tipped it over the edge or be able to glimpse and see what is pushing the to and fro of capture and defence. The better players in this game are able to multi task better than others for instance keeping an eye on the minimap. If more detailed data feed was an option I would like that. It doesn't have to be forced on all that is what settings are for. 

eekeeboo #12 Posted 01 June 2018 - 05:13 PM

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View PostClean, on 01 June 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

Do the names of the bots have any relation to the skill level Veteran/Joe Average/Mong? If I know who is good or bad then I can single them out as I would a human.

 

 

Not as far as I am aware but I shall ask the question for you! Your other questions will have answers also, if all goes as planned! As for managing bots, it is possible if you get a feel of the bots more. I can give you advice on how I do this, but I promise nothing. 

 

View PostClean, on 01 June 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

eekeeboo can you also please clarify base capture?

 

Many a time I have shot down attacking planes only to lose the base anyway. It was hard to tell if something blew up or a friendly was killed at the same time. The Blue/Red/White pie being eroded gives an idea to what is happening but it would be nice if on the kill feed some information was given regarding kills/ground damage and the points awarded for and against capture so that all can make sense of what is happening.

 

This can be somewhat more difficult to track but when replays hopefully begin to work it will help clarify and people can see what has happened. So base capturing works as a sort of tug of war for the sector. The more you destroy/kill the more points for your team. The enemy team destroys and kills, resets the points you score. Now the only really clear way to get this information in real time is to have "alt" pressed and it will display on the sector what points you are earning for what and compare them for each team. 

 

For example. A neutral sector starts:

Spoiler

 

Progress on the capture (My ADA kill and a bot activity): 

Spoiler

 

Final capture of a neutral base: 

Spoiler

 

 

Now this was a relatively peaceful cap, no one crashed and no one killed themselves and the bots/ADA didn't kill a teammate. 

 

THIS is me intercepting a sector and you will see how i reset those enemy points with actions: 

Spoiler

 

First Kill: 

Spoiler

 

Simultaneous actions at the cap: 

 

Spoiler

 

Here you see how different tasks have different points values allocated to cap/decap a sector: 

Spoiler

 

The instances of "instant" cap and flipping are usually when you have your bots performing high point reward actions and/or the enemy/ADA crashing at the same time as those actions. This can be achieved as well if you drop all your ordinance to blitz a high value GT then kill an enemy team plane while they focus on ADA and you have a bot likewise hitting something. Get the timing right and you have a large impact. The only way to keep an eye on what is happening closely as I've said is through the alternative interface. Not ideal but it may help you to diagnose such instances. 



dreambill #13 Posted 01 June 2018 - 05:15 PM

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View PostHorcan, on 01 June 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

-finishing group of buildings ( if you almost fully destroy an AA gun for example, but the last small house near it is taken by enemy, they will get the points, not you ).

 

This is one of the MAJOR flaws of the design of conquest.

The "Neutral" faction. 3 Way fighting. Its Moronic.

WG can design the game without it. Bases will be assigned to teams in start giving equal points, and fight for possession must always be between 2 sides, NOT 3.



Franco_Scala #14 Posted 01 June 2018 - 05:21 PM

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View Postdreambill, on 01 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

 

This is one of the MAJOR flaws of the design of conquest.

The "Neutral" faction. 3 Way fighting. Its Moronic.

WG can design the game without it. Bases will be assigned to teams in start giving equal points, and fight for possession must always be between 2 sides, NOT 3.

 

Honestly, neutral team never bothered me that much, though many fellow players found it odd and you have a fair point. It seems the only reason for neutral was some added farming for lower capability players before the red heat fell on them and/or to add a level of strategy that gives 'better' players a chance to gain advantage by beating the enemy to the punch on valuable areas. However, in the latter case, the benefits seem to be outweighed by many other factors of game design.

dreambill #15 Posted 01 June 2018 - 05:36 PM

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Attacking a neutral base the same time with an enemy leads to many "unfair" and illogical things.

One is what mentioned about GTs being almost finished by one team to be cleared by the opposite team.

Other is AA which choose a target from one side thus becoming "allies" of the opposite one.

AA, GTs and Defending bots exist also in captured bases and have a side, thus behave "fair" to the scoring and outcome of the battle.

 

For me as a design is a MAJOR flaw which saws very poor understanding from the designers part about the game itself.

 


Edited by dreambill, 01 June 2018 - 05:39 PM.


blackmoomba #16 Posted 01 June 2018 - 05:42 PM

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@Clean - at all times, the cap shows the team in the lead... however, if you have 3/4 of the cap blue, it doesn't mean the enemy is at 0, it can be at 3/5. The real cap progress is seen if you press ALT. How do the "flips" work? In close progress situations, if the enemy kills one of your team mates(bots)... your team will lose progress, the enemy gets progress. Considering a plane is worth like 40 points, if you lead 180 to 160... team drops to 140, enemy caps with 200.

dreambill #17 Posted 01 June 2018 - 05:51 PM

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Where is this stated?

(No offense, its a very helpful explanation, just asking if its being explained from WG somewhere and I missed it)


Edited by dreambill, 01 June 2018 - 05:54 PM.


Clean #18 Posted 01 June 2018 - 06:54 PM

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This information is useful. Is it possible though to have the ALT setting as the default information rather than having to press a key to find out?

jakub_czyli_ja #19 Posted 01 June 2018 - 07:28 PM

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View PostClean, on 01 June 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

This information is useful. Is it possible though to have the ALT setting as the default information rather than having to press a key to find out?

Set it to on/off in options and you can just switch the mode before battle.

 

Problem is that 'standard' mode shows distance to enemy target, and it's missing in alt mode.

 



Diminios #20 Posted 01 June 2018 - 07:37 PM

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View PostClean, on 01 June 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

This information is useful. Is it possible though to have the ALT setting as the default information rather than having to press a key to find out?

 

You can set the keybinding for alternative interface to be "toggle" instead of "hold key".





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