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PlPPlN #1 Posted 23 July 2018 - 06:32 AM

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Im coming back after a fairly long break and im encountering a problem that I had forgotten about.

This is a bots game, we actual players are just along for the ride. 

By this I mean most games are populated by bots. maybe a 5th of the planes in the sky are actually piloted by players. This means the impact on the game is rather minimal meaning that the game feels like its decided from the start. Unless you have an exceptional game you cant really influence the result. This is massively frustrating. I just played 3 games in a row, 3 times highest scoring in the game, most caps and cap points and of course 3 losses. 

The bots seem to be too influential in the game rather than just populating the skies and adding a challenge for the actual players. I want to win because my team (by team I mean the players on my team) was better or I was better. This doesnt happen at the moment. Now im not an exceptional player, I have my moments as we all do but im doing consistently well and I feel like im being punished by the game, regardless of what I do. There are games where the players on my team myself included have been so uninfluential that we deserved to lose yet the AI has rolled the dice and decided for me and the rest of the team to win.

I cant really propose a fix for this as my knowledge of how this works is limited however I can tell you what I think would work better so here are some ideas.

 

-Let the highest scoring human players on each team ping the map with a higher likelihood of AI to go there. So for example I ping a mine or airfield and some AI flying close redirect to it and help cap. An extension of this could be that 2-3 bots in the team are linked to a human player and will fly in a very loose formation with said player or allowing that player to have some basic control over where the AI go. Of course if there are no directions given they can do their own thing. 

 

-Slower capping for AI. This would mean that a player has more time to react or move into a position before a zone has been capped allowing those players who have their eye on the ball to move defensively and stop a capture or help in one. This would allow the player to have a greater influence in the game. This means player skill, ability and awareness plays a larger part in which team wins.

 

-Make bots more reactive. If a base is being captured then bots should move to try and defend it and combined with AAA (unless destroyed) they should have a better chance of defending meaning a player is more valuable when capping.

This is all I can think of at the moment. But there are plenty more solutions to this problem as I think while for newer players it may not feel game breaking, but it actually is and the likelihood of players staying and progressing when it feels like RNG is deciding the results is slim.

There are a few other problems but the main one I can think of other than the one mentioned above is to give bots a prefix. And any human players who think theyre smart by adding one should have it removed from the name displayed. 

This game is fun and although many still complain about the change from 1.9 to 2.0 its still a good game and it still has a lot of potential. But these kinds of problems persist and it pushes a player base away. I mean adding the prefix to a bots name wouldn't be in the least bit hard in fact I bet it would take about 30 minutes and could be sent out as a hot-patch same day and be under 1mb. 


Edited by PlPPlN, 23 July 2018 - 06:35 AM.


dreambill #2 Posted 23 July 2018 - 02:12 PM

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The thing you are mentioning above is one of major reasons why too many times I stated I don't "enjoy" playing conquest, and ask for an additional "old" WoWp mode.

It was harder - frustrating - at times, but when you manage to carry, you could win a game, and feel really joyful about it.



CheefCoach #3 Posted 23 July 2018 - 03:46 PM

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No it is mostly humans game, and the bots are mostly riding along. Or more precisely, both teams should have the same bots, so they are canceling out. 

 

Thing is that you influence the game by making good tactical decisions and not only shooting anything red that is moving. 

 

When you watch the score, watch grades and not personal points. Grades are the best way to determine how much you influenced the game. 

 

Hall of fame is little broken now, but when it works you can see that some players wins majority of time,  and some can't move past 40 % point. If bots were determine the game we all would had around 50 % of wining rate. 


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PlPPlN #4 Posted 23 July 2018 - 04:28 PM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 23 July 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

No it is mostly humans game, and the bots are mostly riding along. Or more precisely, both teams should have the same bots, so they are canceling out. 

 

 

Definitely not mostly humans here in EU. lucky to get 3 or 4 on each team. 

And it doesnt seem to me that all bots are equal. 

As for the grades im normally between 3 and 5. (grades being the chevrons?) I also have a 58.7% wr. My post is about the inconsistency of bots. Its not unusual for there to be one human player on each side either. So that should mean that its between me and them. But iv had games where i have had 400+ cap points as well as 20+ air kills and still lost while they did a fraction of that and still won. This makes me believe that the outcome is almost predetermined or at the very least at the start of the game the AI is given a random 'skill' level and then its all down to RNG. 



blackmoomba #5 Posted 23 July 2018 - 04:38 PM

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From the start i wanna say, i did lose games to bots... i even lost games to bots while having a 4-5 chevrons performance, HOWEVER i don't see it as a bots game or even a problem. My position, same as CheefCoach and a few others is that the game switched from a 1v1 dogfighting skill towards a strategy/tactical mode that revolves more around caps than kills.

Players blame most of the loses to bots, in my experience it's actually human team mates that are losing most of the games... i can't even keep track of the number of fights that i lost to GAAs scoring under 4-5k PP (that less than 10 GTs), most agile fighters like Spits, Zeros shooting down an "impressive" 3-4 aerial targets, same for multiroles and heavies... most of them are playing badly, low altitude fighters moving at the speed of swimming in the mud at 3k alt, making them a stationary target to everyone, heavies doing turn wars at 500m alt with fighters, target fixation... they wouldn't break off a target even if they evidently under fire, etc... and on top of all these i get the random 1 AFK, or rager that leaves the games after the first death or mid fight.

In my experience the most frustrating games are in the T5-7 bracket... it's much more populated and the number of bad players and those who slapped 3-4k gold to buy a few premiums but can't fly them. It feels like you do a sh1tload of work and achieve nothing cuz the TEAM is dying left and right, high and low.

 

PS: Pippin, i can score 400 capture points farming kills above an airfield that it's contested for like 2-3 minutes at the start of the fight... same for the kills, it's easy to farm defending. While you are busy doing that, the enemy player capped 3-4 bases and wins the game on points... trust me, i've done it a lot of times. If i'm in a heavy/multirole... or anything that can't match you in a 1v1, i switch to objectives... and if the game is still close, i flip the coin and time it to make my approach and engage on you when the squall ticks in... if i manage to kill you, it's almost guaranteed win, if not... i can't win them all.

 

On the subject of adding commands to bots, it would be unwise... i can see it work only in a perfect situation, only 2-3 players and all of them intelligent, but even then it can generate some problems, while in the lower tiers it would be a cluster F to have them respond to a spam of orders from all the garbage flying around.


Edited by blackmoomba, 23 July 2018 - 04:44 PM.


PlPPlN #6 Posted 23 July 2018 - 04:45 PM

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True, I cant contest the most are bad. But Im finding that 4 players a team is rare and its usually 2-3 a team. This means bots are more influential and I shouldn't have to sacrifice fun in order to win. I could go get some ground attack planes or heavy fighters but personally I dont like flying boats. Seeing as some objectives require ordnance it makes capturing with a fighter next to impossible.

blackmoomba #7 Posted 23 July 2018 - 05:03 PM

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Even then it's situational, if you play a reduced speed fighter, low hp, or under-gunned for that tier... don't expect to have a huge impact on the game, i.e a Zero or some of the USSR fighters in the 6-7 bracket. You can't move from cap to cap fast enough... maybe in between 2 of them, also you have to keep in mind the enemy and bots in heavies will make your life a pain just like any other player would, you can't chase them, you can't really kill them but you always have to take evasive actions. In this situation you have to rely on your team-mates OR help bots flip something, but make a smart decision.. don't go contest a plant where you can't help kill those 3k alt bombers... go somewhere you can make the difference by shooting down 3 defense planes and flip that, or if you have the firepower kill those pesky GAAs that stop yours from flipping a cap.

Sometimes its even worse... it's just bad luck, to play a Zero in a +1T MM, on a big map with mining plants, etc... there's almost nothing you can do.



dreambill #8 Posted 23 July 2018 - 06:27 PM

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In situations 1 vs 1 Human, its impossible to cover every possible situation on map, you heavily depend from your bots assistance (in capturing - defending - etc).

And there are countless examples were they hugely over or under perform comparing to the other team. So much, that even a big difference between human players ends up to opposite outcome.

 



eekeeboo #9 Posted 24 July 2018 - 07:20 AM

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As hinted before. The best thing to do is to help your bots, not have your bots help you. Granted plans don't always happen like this. 

 

But being able to clear your bots tails in a fight frees them up to return the favour later. Too much time there is the expectation for bots to do all the work in capping while a player focuses on killing. 

 

You first objective should be cap the easy sectors or most influential and herd your bots to certain parts of the map or away from brawling sectors. Big things like capping the middle base first where the whole team goes to first, means your bots are able to move to the peripheral sectors. Being the first person into a sector, means yes you take more damage and get focused by ADA more. But it means your bots can do a lot of damage to them and you can get your job done finishing them easier. 

 

2.0 is very much about mind-set and situational awareness over reaction. 

 

I found having games with 2-4 players only per side quite rare or at tiers that are a little odd at odd hours. Tier 10 at 11PM is always quiet, but the last game I played had 10 players per side at tier 8 in the afternoon. 



zgubny #10 Posted 24 July 2018 - 08:27 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 24 July 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

 

2.0 is very much about mind-set and situational awareness over reaction. 

 

 

 

2.0 has got so much bugs and so much disconnections that we are aware of the situation : most of the time , there is no bot disconnected only humans and this changes everything ...

Actually that's the real problem and during several months the chat made us quit the game , now the chat is fixed and we can see players still flying straight forward .

I don't think it's a bots game to my mind it's more a disconnections game .

Sometimes you start to cap a sector and you know what : some white planes are already very wounded , they have so few HP that you can cap the sector easily ...

i've been playing all the weekend long but yes "we actual players are just along for the ride"and yes "This is massively frustrating". 

We are close to October now , one year after this release there is no more people because they changed a good game into a game playable for those coming from World of tanks .

For me 2.0 is just a frustrating game and a fail .



raketak_ #11 Posted 24 July 2018 - 08:45 AM

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On second side, I prefer games 1-1. With this you are able really impact game (and farm exp, kills...). Of course, not in tier 3 GAA or similar planes incapable to fast cap sector (and ideally defend sector). Yes, this is not brave as play 5-5 human, but can we be brave in game? :)

Problem for many players is that focus on killing planes or ground target and not on battle flow. In this is eekeeboo right. Kill 20+ planes don't win game. Kill 10 planes in right moment on right place create much bigger effect. And many time I see human don't recognize what sector is important and what not. 


 



zen_monk_ #12 Posted 24 July 2018 - 08:54 AM

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Then again, maybe you're pushing a daily mission with a specific requirement - for example, points in capturing & defending airfields. If that's the case, I'll plant myself in the blue and rack points.
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eekeeboo #13 Posted 24 July 2018 - 09:53 AM

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View Postzgubny, on 24 July 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

 

 

Bugs aside, doesn't change the way you win a game ;) 

 

"No more people" is different to we now have different players than before. You have made your position clear on what you think of 2.0 and how you view it. But 2.0 will not go away and be magically replaced with 1.9. 

 

2.0 is here to stay and will be improved, as seen with the improvements occurring most recently with bug fixes and attempts at game modes like attrition. 

 

View Postzen_monk_, on 24 July 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

 

 

This is the thing, is your objective to win or is your objective to complete a mission? This is why I stopped caring about my winrate a long time ago. I play for tasks, missions and medals, I can win if i need to, but so few times I actually need to. 

zen_monk_ #14 Posted 24 July 2018 - 09:56 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 24 July 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

This is the thing, is your objective to win or is your objective to complete a mission? This is why I stopped caring about my winrate a long time ago. I play for tasks, missions and medals, I can win if i need to, but so few times I actually need to. 

 

You have zen in you too :-). You've described exactly the way I approach this game.
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eekeeboo #15 Posted 24 July 2018 - 10:00 AM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 24 July 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

 

You have zen in you too :-). You've described exactly the way I approach this game.

 

Maybe... you have eek in you! :P 

zgubny #16 Posted 24 July 2018 - 10:28 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 24 July 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

 

Bugs aside, doesn't change the way you win a game ;)    

 

 

ah ok .... explain me the way to win a game when you are out ....???

 

View Posteekeeboo, on 24 July 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

 

"No more people" is different to we now have different players than before. You have made your position clear on what you think of 2.0 and how you view it. But 2.0 will not go away and be magically replaced with 1.9. 

 

"No more people" means 2.0 is not attractive ans still not as fun as 1.9 ..... actually world of warplanes is full of world of tanks players .....
 

zen_monk_ #17 Posted 24 July 2018 - 10:33 AM

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View Postzgubny, on 24 July 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

actually world of warplanes is full of world of tanks players .....

 

We all came from WoT five-six years ago. Is that derogatory now?
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zgubny #18 Posted 24 July 2018 - 10:40 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 24 July 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

 

 But 2.0 will not go away and be magically replaced with 1.9. 

2.0 is here to stay and will be improved, as seen with the improvements occurring most recently with bug fixes and attempts at game modes like attrition. 

 

 

i never asked to throw away 2.0 game mode , actually i even tried to help the 3.0 topic with a combination of several modes .... that's different ...

you guys don't understand we want a dog fight mode with good flight mechanics like in 1.9 ....

You the only staff member now and you still don't understand what we tell you ...

Wargaming seems to don't want to have more players in this game : they have enough credit card players now... they make all the efforts to make people stop playing this game .

And you behaviour towards people of the community is unbelievable ... now this is sure even if we have a great mode i will never put one euro in a free to play game ... you know i'm saying !



zen_monk_ #19 Posted 24 July 2018 - 10:43 AM

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View Postzgubny, on 24 July 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

 

i never asked to throw away 2.0 game mode

 

I beg your pardon?!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You can see hundreds, literally hundreds of your rants in now closed "Revert to..." thread. I'm not holding that against you, just don't make false statements here.


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zgubny #20 Posted 24 July 2018 - 10:45 AM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 24 July 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

 

We all came from WoT five-six years ago. Is that derogatory now?

 

and some of us played 3 battles to WOT and we never liked it , you tried to play 1.9 you never liked it and they just want to have everybody in the same game with different state of mind , you have the result :

2.0 is a 1 year battle between you and me .... so sad we had good expectations : i remind you we still have this "coming soon event"  in which we can buy Legendary planes with tokens .... 1 year later still nothing ...

 

View Postzen_monk_, on 24 July 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

 

I beg your pardon?!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You can see hundreds, literally hundreds of your rants in now closed "Revert to..." thread. I'm not holding that against you, just don't make false statements here.

 

reverse back doensn't mean "cut off "....
 

 

that's the reason dreambill started a new topic in which you are only 6 or 7 people who don't want 2 modes in a same game  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's a shame ...
 







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