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Poll: Invasion Game Mode Opinion (35 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 5 battle in order to participate this poll.

How comfortable is it to play? Do you feel it needs a re-work?

  1. The mode is comfortable enough (1 vote [2.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.86%

  2. Invasion Mode needs some alterations and re-work (17 votes [48.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.57%

  3. This mode is completely uncomfortable, it needs to be disabled (17 votes [48.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.57%

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eekeeboo #1 Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:04 PM

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Greetings pilots!

 

There's been a lot of feedback on the Invasion game mode, both positive and negative. To help communicate this feedback more clearly we would appreciate if you could follow the below format:

 

How comfortable is it to play? Do you feel it needs a re-work?

 

1.            The mode is comfortable enough, it does not need any re-work or alterations.  

2.            Invasion Mode needs some alterations and re-work. (Please specify what in particular you feel requires attention)

3.            This mode is completely uncomfortable, it needs to be disabled. (Please describe your main reasons.)

 

Please, start your post with the number correlating to your opinion, with the line "I've chosen point . . ." then provide the required supplementary information.

 

Please remain on topic and adhere to the format. 

 

Thank-you for your time and comments. 



Eviscerador #2 Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:38 PM

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The mode needs some rethinking. I played it at all tiers and these are my impressions:

  • At high tiers GAA power grows exponentialy, which allows them to just boost in, cap one cap and move to the next. Even if they all die, they can just respawn again and do that again. Bots cannot defend against player GAA. They never did, that is the point of people exploiting tier X GAA to have ridiculous high WR.
  • Bombers exploiting high ceiling can just win the game alone, since there is no way to counter their points with kills or whatever. They slowly grind down every sector and the defender can't do anything.
  • MM is not well designed. Usually it gets all the players from low tiers, and fill the top tiers with bots and a random player. It is very frustrating for players, specially when everyone is top tier but 2 or 3 on the bottom.
  • MRF will be useless half of the time. If they choose not to pick ordenance, they are just slow fighters and in attack they can't do ground pounding. If they choose to PICK ordenance and they defend, then the ordenance is useless.
  • At low and mid tiers the game is more or less balanced and fun. Main problems are Jet GAA and the RB 17 at high tiers. Also, the number of GAA players was absurd, so you could have 7 or 8 GAA players in the enemy team, which could just snowball all the caps. I was flying the Sabre to farm the 50 defence kills, but we couldn't kill them fast enough. Got a lot of defeats with good scores just because they cap so fast you can't react.

 

More or less that is all. The mode is good up to tier 7. Once you get to tier 8 and above, it is a real mess and really unbalanced to the attacker side.


Edited by Eviscerador, 03 September 2018 - 12:38 PM.


raketak_ #3 Posted 03 September 2018 - 01:10 PM

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I've chosen point 3

 

 

Big problem is balance. High tiers and high number of players - GAA win. In low tiers GAA are week. 3 human in T10 GAA can take what they want. But when players stop use them and team are only with fighters - you have as attacker more planes for replace. I don't say that all time win one side, but we will all time blame mode (WG) for lost. True is not important, feeling that WG put me as victim is there.


 

Identical problem is with not symmetric maps - If I have factory and second team radar, I'm unhappy. When I win - second team is unhappy too. WG can only lost with non symmetric maps / modes  :)


 

If this will be PvE, maybe. But is not big fun be prey in GAA for players or need use only fighters with high fire power (on high tiers) for hunt bombers. And count for ranks "help with kill". I must damage plane (not kill) and hope that my team will finish him?



NatteFrost #4 Posted 03 September 2018 - 01:29 PM

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"I've chosen point 3"

 

i will not speak about the mode cuz i played 1 single game of it and has no oppinion about it.

 

what i will say is that i am not a fan, nor do i like ANY gamemode other then the default conquest mode, cuz they changes the way the game is played too mutch.

it does not get any better that they are FORCED upon us and only exeption are t1-t3, possibly leading to a higer level of sealcubbing in said tiers due to regular players not wanting to play the event mode, just normal conquest.

 

the sooner this game supports multiple selectable game modes in drop down meny and thus removing event game modes from defualt conquest matchmaker, the better.



Senjougahara #5 Posted 03 September 2018 - 02:06 PM

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Point 2

 

I'm coming at this mainly from the point of view of high tiers (I mainly play tier 10), I don't know what mid and low tiers are like so much.

Fundamentally I still think this mode could work, and the balancing is better than the last time we saw this game mode, but it's still lacking something. It's hard to say exactly what it's lacking, other than maybe some more depth.

 

At the moment it feels like this game mode is all about GAA vs heavies. On the one hand you have a bunch of specialised GAA and you seem to be able to get up to 6 on the attacking side, I've had matches with 4 or 5 human piloted specialised GAA and these are near impossible to stop, if they all coordinate to attack a sector at once nothing can stop them flipping it. On the other hand you have the heavies (or anti-GAA MRFs such as J7W3, anything with air-to-air rockets like BV or Starfire) which are the only things with enough firepower to reliably and quickly take out the onslaught of GAA, if a bunch of specialised heavies focus down all GAAs they find it difficult to ever take a cap.

 

Light fighters and other MRFs just don't have enough game impact on this mode. No matter how well you play a light fighter you just don't have the sustained speed to cross the map to defend a sector or the firepower to kill a GAA before they have a decent chance of capping. So it feels like this game mode is lacking variety, in order to be effective you're basically forced to play one of two classes.

 

As somebody mentioned on the discord this is in contrast to the regular game mode where light fighters are king and heavies are mediocre at best, and GAA while effective find it difficult to outpace a light fighter in capping and points unless they are completely unopposed (and even then the light fighter just needs to harass the GAA a little to put it out of its stride).

 

So in the current state where we only have one game mode running at a time we know what type of plane to pick to be most effective, in invasion we pick GAA or heavy and dominate the match. On regular conquest you pick a light fighter and dominate the match. In attrition it's more about GAA/bombers taking caps and light fighters getting the kills. I don't think that having a game mode dominated by one particular type of plane is necessarily a bad idea, but when people know that's the game mode they're going to get they will tend to pick that type of plane more, or feel they are pressured to pick that type of plane more. So if all 3 modes were mixed into the MM then we'd never know which type of plane will be the most effective choice as we don't know which mode we'll get. This way it will be more balanced and not punish people picking an ineffective plane so much, and we can pick the type of plane we want to play and not have to worry knowing for certain it'll be useless in the current game mode.



Gelbhanz #6 Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:46 PM

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For me, the mode was quite nice when I was defending because the attacking team had it more difficult. Mostly there were two airbases which shoudl be conquested with fighters but there was too few fighters in the team.I guess if you look at winrate of the attacking team (especially on the "Egypt" map), it would be surely under 50 per cent.... ;-) So if you reduce the number of airfields, it would be nice... ;-)

MB72 #7 Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:48 PM

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"I've chosen point  2 -   Invasion Mode needs some alterations and re-work" 

 

I think the biggest problem overall is timescale. It cannot be the same for jets or prop planes. Slow planes simply cannot contribute enough. It's most obvious with the bombers. Slow bombers don't have enough time to do much, while RB-17's can do a lot. 

Also, on some maps, respawn points stay very far from the last zones, and slow planes simply cannot come to the battle zone soon enough after respawn. Meanwhile defenders are already there, and the time is ticking.

Also, during this mode, there is no way to get awards and medals the same way you normally do. That should be under consideration when mission tasks are set.

I don't mind the mode per se, but some things should be modified

 


Edited by MB72, 03 September 2018 - 05:01 PM.


Killtech #8 Posted 03 September 2018 - 04:04 PM

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point 2

 

View PostKilltech, on 02 September 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

the biggest issue right now seems to be the IL-40(P). it carries a lot of playload, is tough with a powerful rear gunner and most importantly it is fast. that makes it the most effective GAA for this mode and since players realize that it seems that the good GAA focused pilots all queue up with these machines. that creates bad team match-ups. but what's more is that if 3 of those go for the same sector there is barely enough time to to prevent them from taking it over... and they quickly go directly for the next one. this way they can take over most of the map within a very short amount of time if they are not extensively focused down. 

 

on the lower tiers up to 7 the games seemed mostly balanced. i was able to contribute a lot to victories regardless whether on the defender or attacker side. and quite a few of those games i had in these tiers ended very tight with the battle for last sector and only a few machines left on both sides. incidentally this gameplay reminds me most of 1.9 version since this is the only mode where not dying is of utmost importance (especially as defender) and the limited respawns are really felt. as an attacker playing against a superior air force makes the nearly forgotten BnZ tactics very effective at melting the limited respawn pool of the defenders. biggest difference to 1.9 however is that GAA and bombers are now actually very relevant and can be a decisive factor like every other class. so around tier 5-7 invasion is getting somewhere and today for the first time it was starting to be fun. 

 

however i have noticed that in this mode plane balance is quite off. especially slow fighters and those with low caliber weapons are doing particularly badly given that each defender must be able to deal with GAA or bombers swiftly. attackers on the other hand need to be able to flee from superior groups of enemy planes or at very least be able to leave a sector before being shot down (so the cap points aren't undone).

 

as GAA go lowest tiers (IV and partially V) are too ineffective/slow in the ground attack role. for one they lack speed and for the other more important they simply don't have enough payload to handle that many armored targets. in 1.9 there were enough light targets to pick off but this has chaged. in the end they are better off playing in like multi-role fighters... and they actually have just enough maneuverability to do so. this problem applies not only to invasion but to the normal mode as well (and for tier II and III GAA too).

 

for tiers IX and X the situation reverses. while in normal mode that makes them very competitive against other classes (in terms of carrying battles not dogfighting) in invasion this just creates an unstoppable thunder. then again, this could maybe be fixed by adapting the Match Maker to prevent too many of those per team. oh, also the lack of bombers is somewhat of a problem. GAAs are low on the ground and can easily see which ground targets are attacked and therefore switch targets when they see a college firing off his rockets on their target. bombers however often drop their bombs on targets before one of their GAA team mates also engages that. this leads to an overkill of a GT being destroyed by the GAA first and bombed afterwards. this effectively reduces the teams strike capacity and prolongs their attack because it reduces the available payload they have left for the remaining target.

 

MM suggestion: considering that teams are asymmetrical anyway how about introducing a MM-weight for each plane and for each role (defender/attacker) for invasion mode such that MM attempts to give both team a similar total weight. while this wouldn't change light fighters being less decisive for this mode it would make it at least more balanced. and if you are into modern technology i would advise using matchine learning techniques to finding the patterns that ensure most balanced weights for all the planes. if set up right and fed with plentiful of data such techniques can do real wonders and provide us with a balanced game mode in much faster time.


Edited by Killtech, 03 September 2018 - 04:42 PM.


Horcan #9 Posted 03 September 2018 - 04:18 PM

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Chosed point 3, since i dont think this can be balanced to be fair for all tiers. On top of what Eviscerador said, i could add the fact that speed of plane differ on tiers, and most games end up being if youre lucky or not to go where enemy go. Some games attackers manage to capture forward bases before the defenders even reach that position. Other games end up by flocks of fighters circle around a base looking how bases are capped by bombers from stratosphere. It just a chaotic mode, that is mostly decided by what players/bots you get in the team. Also i saw a lot of people quitting at the start because they didnt like being attacker in fighter/heavy. Huge inbalance also lead to stupid games where even if it starts well, the defenders end up with only one base, but they manage to overcome a handicap of 3 to 15 reserve sorties simply because the 6 attackers cant do anything vs a flock of 12 + defense bots+ infernal AA from hell.

Horrible not fun at all mode that i wouldnt endure unless there were prizes involved.


Retired from this censored BS forum

Spartan_93 #10 Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:51 PM

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I've chosen point 2: Invasion Mode needs some alterations and re-work.

 

(If i write about fighters, i mean all 3 fighters classes: normal fighters, heavy fighters and multirole fighters. With AI-defenders i mean the sector defenders controlled by AI (sorry, don't know the english name for them))

 

The big problem is the imbalance in the numbers of fighters planes on each side:

  • 6 fighters (half team) in attackers team
  • 12 fighters (complette team) + AI-defender (+ AA guns)

The attacker team is heavily outnumbered in matters of aerial battle.

Everyone knows, that even a number advantage of 1 plane, can decide a complette combat, because this "free" plane can choose his targets, it can defend his teammates or support in attack, so the number advantage gets even bigger which each easy kill. It leads to a cascade of advantage.

 

In Invasion is this cascade not even necessary because of the high number of human/bot-fighters + AI-defenders + AA guns it is nearly impossible for attackers in fighter plane to fight over sectors. The fighters of the attacker team loses the aerial combat very fast and the GAAs are the next easy target and die fast, too, because being outnumbered and focused by a lot of enemy fighters.

 

In low tier matches the only chance for the attackers to do a focused attack with the complett team on a single sector (yes, complett team in a random battle with half bot team and slow GAAs) and the luck, that only half of enemy team is on that sector. In higher tier matches the russian GAAs get faster and carries a heavier payload, and can take over a sector in a single rush by spamming all of the payload. Also the backgunners get really effectiv at higher tiers, so a GAA can defend themself without wasting the respawn tickets of the team.

 

In low tier matches it is an easy win for the defending team. Because of the high number advantage (and the lacking of fast and powerfull GAAs in the attackers) even a uncoordinated defender team can stop the attackers without any problems. In high tier matches it turns to a nearly fair match, because of the increase of effectivity of russian GAAs.

 

I play nearly no match in the last invasion phase, because there was the risk to come into attacking team as a fighter. There is absolutly no fun to fight an enemy with more twice number of fighter planes (or even triple numbers if there are AI-defenders over a sector). It is not fun, it is no challenge, it is just suicide and sucks, especially for slow turn'n'burn fighters.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

My suggestion is:

  • remove GAAs and human/bot-controlled bombers of the attacking team
  • attacking team and defending team are made up of 12 fighters
  • add some AI-controlled-bomber-squad (like the bomber squads from the flight controll center (again, don't know if that is the right name)
  • attacking team needs to escort the AI-bomber-squads from sector to sector in a given order.
  • maybe limited AI-bomber-respawns

 

 



m249jim #11 Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:44 PM

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View PostMB72, on 03 September 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

"I've chosen point  2 -   Invasion Mode needs some alterations and re-work" 

 

I think the biggest problem overall is timescale. It cannot be the same for jets or prop planes. Slow planes simply cannot contribute enough. It's most obvious with the bombers. Slow bombers don't have enough time to do much, while RB-17's can do a lot. 

Also, on some maps, respawn points stay very far from the last zones, and slow planes simply cannot come to the battle zone soon enough after respawn. Meanwhile defenders are already there, and the time is ticking.

Also, during this mode, there is no way to get awards and medals the same way you normally do. That should be under consideration when mission tasks are set.

I don't mind the mode per se, but some things should be modified

 

 

Would agree, but the issue of slow planes and maps doesn't just affect invasion, there are some maps, Archipelago in particular which is  pretty bad in any slow planes, which means tier 4 and below

_Desper #12 Posted 03 September 2018 - 09:01 PM

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I chose point 2

 

I will try to be as short as possible. 

 

Pros

- similar feeling like from 1.9 when both teams use all respawns

- can be fun with right plane at right tier with right team mates

- played plenty of pve battles aka 6 humans vs full bot team which was fun but too easy 2:30 battle time is too short

- attackers are more fun, defending and killing never ending spam of GAA is tire some after while

 

Cons

- battles are too short,  end in 3-5 min, no matter of side or players numbers or tier

- there is no way how to balance this mode, 3v3 or 8v8 need different number of points to cap bases. 4 GAA players at high tier just flip bases too fast and save bombs or rockets for next base. Overall taking base is too fast, garrisons are not worth to even defend at high tiers

- low tiers are pain full on big maps, capping bases is also too fast. It doesn't make sense cap base by kill only two planes or few ADA, there is nothing left for GAA then. Then you have bombers which are out of reach for anyone. 

- majority of battles are roflstomps no matter of tier or side 

 

Conclusion

- make it pure pve mode as attack only. Add more bases and make them last longer to prevent 2-3 min battle.

- or remake this into 1.9 mode with 3 respawns for all


Edited by _Desper, 04 September 2018 - 11:23 AM.


klbergmen #13 Posted 04 September 2018 - 12:04 PM

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This mode is as unbalanced as it can get and I don't think there is a way to get any balance, so I voted for option #3

- This is basically GA against heavies. Fighters and multiroles are pretty much useless. If the heavy ends up on the attacking side he will most likely not have a good game. Bombers are too slow and only under special circumstances could have good games.

- If enough GA rush one cap then the defenders have no chance.

- One high flying bomber can win the game alone if he has enough time and his team doesn't interfere (dies in the cap he bombs).

- If the attackers don't manage to get a cap fast enough the game is over in less than 2 or 3min (whatever the inital time limit is).

- Because the games are much shorter and targets are limited its nearly impossible to have good games.

- Respawns are limited over the whole team - noobs and bots steal respawns from the good players. If one idiot crashes often enough the whole team looses ist respawns.

- The argument that this mode increases teamplay is just stupid. First of all at least half the teammembers are bots. With them there is no teamplay possible. Then in general there is no teamplay in this game. In this mode in particular there is only a rush to the caps - there is no time for anything else.

- The short battle duration and limited number of targets means that this mode made it impossible to fulfill the event missions. This was a really stupid

combination and forseeable.

- Bots tend to spread out to all bases. If there are 3 bases at the front and two behind then 2/5 of the bots on the defending side don't take part in the initial action becasue they fly to the wrong bases.

- In one battle I saw a bomber flight after the radar station was captured - what was that ?



Killtech #14 Posted 04 September 2018 - 09:27 PM

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just a quick remark here: the 2-3 minutes battles aren't bad if you consider the reason: usually in these battles are completely one sided with a team of experienced defenders against newbie attackers. better to end such pointless fights fast then drag them out any longer then they need to be. otherwise you see the newbies just flying in alone with a few bots into a big hornet swarm just waiting for them instead of looking for a more suspenseful approach.

 

also in general attacker role requires far more experience then defender, especially for fighters which are fighting a superior air force with their task to effectively melt down enemy respawn points without losing their own. that means to harass the enemy by picking off lone enemies that separate from their swarm or staying up in the stratosphere BnZooming on larger forces that are occupied with fighting off GAA. very effective to carry their team that way but it takes time and doesn't work in against tier IX and X IL-Sturmoviks.


Edited by Killtech, 04 September 2018 - 09:35 PM.


Gorzki #15 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:30 PM

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I think the most visible issue with the mode is that battles end really quickly every time and it lefts players with a feeling of landslide - either easy non-satisfying win or  loss that player was helpless to prevent

the reason is the basic ide of cap once taken being taken forever.
 

in conquest if you defend the cap you can retake the one, that other players from your team failed to cap, in invasion what is lost is lost

that promotes furballing whole team over one cap then another.

it gets worse with each cap flipped as both teams are funneled towards less and less map space

also flipping a cap requires 180 points. When both teams are split among few caps it is a reasonable amount. If both teams get points at the same rate the counter will swerve a bit right or bit left
if both teams focus on 1 cap than the "random fluctuations" on score mean sooner or later cap will be flipped

 

 

The issue I have with this mode is that even if win ratio of both sides is equal, the mode is frustrating because the battles are much more likely to be one sided and increase the feeling of being unable to influence the outcome

 

 


Remove the flights. No point giving statpadders another tool to grief other people.


pmdeluxe #16 Posted 06 September 2018 - 05:40 PM

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We could need some different game modes like:

team death match, last plane flying :D, fighters vs fighters.

something for the bombers (bombing huge places) also some historical events just some diffrent stuff to choose from.



NatteFrost #17 Posted 24 September 2018 - 10:11 AM

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View Postpmdeluxe, on 06 September 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

We could need some different game modes like:

team death match, last plane flying :D, fighters vs fighters.

something for the bombers (bombing huge places) also some historical events just some diffrent stuff to choose from.

 

just dont toss them in the defualt conquest mm, keep them in a seperated mm!

 

until the game can support having many different MM running at the same time(cuz right now the game only supports one MM), dont mix conquest with anything else and changed the forced game modes to only be for tier 4-6, so that 1-3 and 7-10 will que for conquest as normal to avoid us regular players sealcubbing cuz we are not allowed to play conquest above t3.

 







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