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Remove bots from the game.


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Ace42X #1 Posted 01 November 2018 - 02:46 PM

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Bots ruin the game, and their inclusion in the game is particularly deceptive and harmful.

Their AI isn't good enough for them to contribute meaningfully to team, so you can't rely on them to do anything - especially not prioritise specific CPs to attack, or provide cover vs enemy fighters.
At the very least they need to congregate over friendly CPs before prioritising *one specific CP* to retake as a group, instead of trickling in single-file to CPs all across the map - but even then that's just papering over fundamental problems with using bots in a game like this.


They aren't distinctive enough on the minimap, so all they do is provide you with misinformation about your team's strength and positioning because you can't tell who is where; as well as allowing non-specialist players to blend into a crowd.


They masquerade as human players on the scoreboard, which causes a noob-trap where inexperienced players think they're defending a CP from credible threats - when instead they're just guaranteeing you lose the match as they farm free personal points over a point that isn't under threat.

All of this gives seal-clubbers even more of an advantage over new players.

Bots are a shoddy way of disguising problems with the server-population, and it comes across as trying to hide the fact that the game is dying when it's impossible to find Tier 3-5 matches that don't have at least half of each team populated by non-people.

Either increase the population by improving the game / expanding outreach; or just let it die.  Trying to wring every last drop of milk out of a failed and dying cash-cow just alienates your customers and causes resentment.
It's really dishonest to trick players into investing time (and money, too) into a game which is on its last legs by artificially inflating the apparent player count.
 


Edited by Ace42X, 01 November 2018 - 02:54 PM.


BravelyRanAway #2 Posted 01 November 2018 - 03:39 PM

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View PostAce42X, on 01 November 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

Bots are a shoddy way of disguising problems with the server-population, and it comes across as trying to hide the fact that the game is dying when it's impossible to find Tier 3-5 matches that don't have at least half of each team populated by non-people.

But they're not disguising the population, they openly tell us about bots, we know there are bots, there's even a mod to highlight them if you can't work it out yourself. They're trying to make the game playable to some degree or else you'll be waiting 15-20 minutes for a game, you should know this as it's what happened to the last version because of a low player population and resulted in it's closing.

I know you say..."or just let it die"....well why don't you just uninstall and leave and let others make their own choice over their own time and money investment. 


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Horcan #3 Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:13 PM

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Edited by Horcan, 28 October 2019 - 05:29 PM.

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Ace42X #4 Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:18 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 01 November 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

But they're not disguising the population, they openly tell us about bots, we know there are bots, there's even a mod to highlight them if you can't work it out yourself. They're trying to make the game playable to some degree or else you'll be waiting 15-20 minutes for a game, you should know this as it's what happened to the last version because of a low player population and resulted in it's closing.

I know you say..."or just let it die"....well why don't you just uninstall and leave and let others make their own choice over their own time and money investment. 


If the bots aren't "hidden" why would you need a mod to "highlight" them, hmmm?
In WOWS the bots have colons either side of their names to mark them out; and the loading screens clearly explain that bots only get autofilled after waiting times exceed a the specified amount, also don't recall the bots in WOWS making glib comments in chat - which further serves to create the illusion that the people playing are humans.

The population level is most definitely disguised by this and exacerbated by the tier system:  Otherwise I'd not have bothered playing the game at all, having discovered straight away that it's DOA.

Between learning the game, grinding out the low tiers (which one might expect to be less populated), and learning the bots' names to the point where you go "I've got to get a mod to see if there's any people playing this game at all", there's a considerable investment of time (and potentially money) before the problems became fully apparent.

And as for a typical white-knight "if you don't like it, uninstall" response to negative feedback in the feedback forum:  Don't you think the playerbase taking such an obvious action and uninstalling *might just be a contributory factor to a dwindling level of population*?
Aside from this leaving the obvious question:  Who's going to reimburse me for the cash I've already invested in a game I had no way of knowing was dead?  You?
I'm pretty sure WG's refund policy's going to be "nuts to you, pal" given the caveats the premium shop puts up when you agree to a purchase.

 

Bots aren't a solution to this game's population problems.  If you're lucky it's life-support delaying the inevitable and letting people 1-vs-1 while a dozen fake-people derp around in the background; but much more likely is that it's just going to disguise the ongoing decline, prevent anything meaningful being done to improve player retention and acquisition, and lead to more ill-will and word-of-mouth being generated by disgruntled users who feel hard done by.



klbergmen #5 Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:19 PM

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Your highest plane is tier 5 right ? So you know only the low and mid tier bots. They become stronger in higher tiers.

After some time you know what you can expect from them and what not. It is not much but that's more than what you can expect from most humans.

The player population is still too small to create battles only between humans - again you know only up to tier 5, in higher tiers there are less humans.

The current system is that you have to capture and defend caps. Initially they are neutral, so you need also neutral bots to defend them.



klbergmen #6 Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:28 PM

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View PostAce42X, on 01 November 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:


In WOWS the bots have colons either side of their names to mark them out; and the loading screens clearly explain that bots only get autofilled after waiting times exceed a the specified amount, also don't recall the bots in WOWS making glib comments in chat - which further serves to create the illusion that the people playing are humans.

 

The developers think that it's funny, so we will never get rid if this bot talk. I also think that this is a really stupid trap.



Ace42X #7 Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:29 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 01 November 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

Your highest plane is tier 5 right ? So you know only the low and mid tier bots. They become stronger in higher tiers.

After some time you know what you can expect from them and what not. It is not much but that's more than what you can expect from most humans.

The player population is still too small to create battles only between humans - again you know only up to tier 5, in higher tiers there are less humans.

The current system is that you have to capture and defend caps. Initially they are neutral, so you need also neutral bots to defend them.

 

At higher tiers, I'd expect the veterans (the people who love the game so much that they haven't moved on to something else) to swell the ranks to the point where seeing bots is a freak occurrence.  In other WG offerings, it's usually the entry tiers that are deserted soon after launch.  If the population's this weak across all the tiers the game is in even worse trouble that it seemed to me up until now!

And I have very little interest in playing much beyond Tier V; I'm mainly playing in order to have fun in a handful of historic aircraft (Spitfires, Hurricanes, 109s, Stukkas, Mosquitos, JU-88s, Zeroes pretty much) all of which are in the mid-tiers - especially in early/mid war configurations.

So "You out-tier the problem" isn't much benefit to me, I'm afraid.

Air-defence aircraft don't bother me at all, they're essentially flying capture-targets, so I'm not worried about the performance of "neutral bots" really.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, though.

Horcan #8 Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:39 PM

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Edited by Horcan, 28 October 2019 - 05:29 PM.

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BravelyRanAway #9 Posted 01 November 2018 - 05:14 PM

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View PostAce42X, on 01 November 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:


If the bots aren't "hidden" why would you need a mod to "highlight" them, hmmm?

You can check them in the battle result, you can't chat to them, can't platoon with them, you can't report....they have no stats. In game they say stupid stuff like ....'The law of robotics has been rescinded' etc.

I'm not a 'white knight'.....I'm a realist.....you're a fatalist, how negative is it to say..."or shut it down" like you did.

 

If you're having more trouble with bots than humans, that's your problem. If you haven't ever see a game die before after spending money....stand by to be surprised in the future with many other games. I've seen many game I put money into die because of lack of finance. If you told everyone before hand that the game might fold even though they might pay some money....how many would cough up in that scenario? Because if you think that's the way to go.....don't even try to start a business.

This game shot it's wad at the launch of the first version, lost so many players who looking for a flying game went to WT because the first version of this sucked. It won't be easy to get them back because they have spent time in WT and telling them that this is the new version won't work as all they see is an old game with the name WoWP's. It was always going to be an up hill struggle.

Regarding money paid to play the game, how many games have you payed for that are no longer around? I know plenty and paid in many that no longer exist. If you're worried about losing some money in a F2P game then why pay...none will last a life time.

Most players have spent more on a single night in a pub than they have in a year in a F2P game....makes me laugh.


Edited by BravelyRanAway, 01 November 2018 - 05:15 PM.

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dreambill #10 Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:03 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 01 November 2018 - 05:14 PM, said:

This game shot it's wad at the launch of the first version, lost so many players who looking for a flying game went to WT because the first version of this sucked. It won't be easy to get them back because they have spent time in WT and telling them that this is the new version won't work as all they see is an old game with the name WoWP's. It was always going to be an up hill struggle.

Allow me to present an opposite view to my friend bravely:

When the first version was shut down, it had more players than this new one has now. It wasn't suck at all, but had difficult learning curve that made it hard for newcomers, so they replaced it with this easy going version to allow new players to come and stay.

Almost nobody from old players liked the change so most left or stay here playing very little. That's why you won't find many players at high tiers, and the situation you see in low-mid tiers is actually with the most humans in battles.

 



Ace42X #11 Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:08 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 01 November 2018 - 05:14 PM, said: (...)

 

You're clearly white-knighting; otherwise you'd not be so consistently missing the point of what was said in your rush to defend a game from people pointing out obvious flaws in it.

 

For example, suggesting that new players should be habitually trying to report, platoon, or message enough random strangers on a server to go "oh, that's weird, after not working the first half-a-dozen times, it suddenly is for this guy" and thus build up a mental list of bots through trial-and-error is a pretty perverse expectation.

Who, but a white-knight, would criticise *negative feedback* on an issue for *being negative*.  That's the whole point of registering my displeasure in the first place.

 

And no, of all the games I've spent money on only for them to die, I can only think of two of them that were *already dead, and STILL tricking players into buying them* at the time.  And in both of these cases it was before Steam allowed refunds, and in both cases I felt abused and deceived that these purchases were being allowed.  At least these games had the excuse that the studios had folded and thus there was nothing they could do – not an excuse that applies to WGing that has several hit titles still going.

As for why the game has population problems and has had its population migrate to another title - that concerns me slightly less than having my experience of this title impaired by bots, and me being out of pocket for a multiplayer-only title that is overwhelmingly populated with bots.


Edited by Ace42X, 01 November 2018 - 06:16 PM.


BravelyRanAway #12 Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:53 PM

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View PostAce42X, on 01 November 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

You're clearly white-knighting; otherwise you'd not be so consistently missing the point of what was said in your rush to defend a game from people pointing out obvious flaws in it.

blah...blah

Who, but a white-knight, would criticise *negative feedback* on an issue for *being negative*.  That's the whole point of registering my displeasure in the first place.

 

 

I deal in logic and facts. You label it 'white-knighting'.

Citicise negative feedback on an issue for being negative?...good grief...make up more stuff. As for defending the game...don't get me started. I critise this game where I see stupidity. WG have pushed this to the limit in new ways to milk time and money, overly complicated with gambling mechanics for upgrading.....it's complete nonsense and will hurt the future of the game.

And yeah.....don't try to start a business, you have no business sense.

 

@Dreambill...we've had that discussion many times. The highest applications(over 2 million) ever for a closed beta ever in a F2P game and it couldn't hold them. That spells suck.


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Ace42X #13 Posted 01 November 2018 - 07:29 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 01 November 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

 

I deal in logic and facts. You label it 'white-knighting'.

Citicise negative feedback on an issue for being negative?...good grief...make up more stuff. As for defending the game...don't get me started. I critise this game where I see stupidity. WG have pushed this to the limit in new ways to milk time and money, overly complicated with gambling mechanics for upgrading.....it's complete nonsense and will hurt the future of the game.

And yeah.....don't try to start a business, you have no business sense.

 

@Dreambill...we've had that discussion many times. The highest applications(over 2 million) ever for a closed beta ever in a F2P game and it couldn't hold them. That spells suck.


You don't seem to understand what "logic" means; you've not actually deployed any.

 

Suggesting people should know the game's full of bots because they could potentially download a mod which they'd only think to look for if they already believe the game is filled with bots is pretty much the opposite of logical; it's begging the question.

You disregard a number of pertinent facts:  Design decisions specific to this title, and distinct from those found in other titles by the same company, deliberately obfuscate the dearth of players;
Obfuscating the dearth of players misrepresents the condition of the game and thus misleads the customer base;

The bots are rubbish, and are not an adequate substitute for actual players;
Creating the misleading impression that the game is adequately populated, and charging customers for a service as if this were the case, is going to harm the brand.

These are the facts, and they are evidenced by the only thing that matters:  It has taken me days to establish just how significant and ongoing this issue is, and it has harmed the brand in my eyes leaving me feel at least a little ripped off.

And it is by acknowledging these facts that we can arrive at a reasonable conclusion:  The status quo (creating lots of rubbish nearly-empty matches filled with bots) - which is actively harming the WGing brand and generating negative sentiment about the game - isn't a viable alternative to taking practical steps to improve player acquisition and retention.
 



BravelyRanAway #14 Posted 02 November 2018 - 10:54 AM

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View PostAce42X, on 01 November 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:


You don't seem to understand what "logic" means; you've not actually deployed any.

Please, do produce a new game in which you tell players from the start there are bots because the player population is very low and that if it fails because of lack of players that they will lose their money or time. You think it would be a successful way to approach launching a game.Show me any game in which this is stated before you spend money. That is my logic, strange you can't see it.

WT launched before WoWP's, it took prospective players and kept them simply because of time investment of players who prefer planes to tanks. As I said it was always going to be an uphill struggle to get them to shift over, but this was not going to happen using the same system as WoT.  The brand of WoWP's is five years old, opinions have been formed and are hard to change. WG were hoping for tankers to play both, but tankers like tanks and for most if not all, planes were just a short distraction from their main interest or something else to do during WoT maintenance.

 

Bots are not the greatest problem, they are necessary until the base grows as long waits for a battle would have a more severe damaging effect. Despite what you think, people have no patience to wait around.

Here's a worse problem......having to grind parts for premium planes which claim to be fully battle ready when you buy them, well.....that's a doozy, in fact, that's down right misleading.


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klbergmen #15 Posted 02 November 2018 - 11:38 AM

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View PostAce42X, on 01 November 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:


You don't seem to understand what "logic" means; you've not actually deployed any.

 

Same can be said about you. After 150battles there is no way that you could possibly estimate the future of this game. You barely arrived at the mid tier area and don't even know how to recognize bots.

I agree that it's not good how bots are hidden from new players.

I'm playing this game actively since around a year and I don't see any sign that it is going down soon.

I'm not saying that everything is fine or that I like all the changes that I saw but it still is in development and in it's core it's a very good game.


 

Often I prefer bots over humans. Battles with 2/3 humans and 1/3 bots are often a total mess. Battles with 100% humans in WoT are often a total mess. Battles with 80-90% bots are much more predictable and I can have a much bigger Impact on the outcome.

High tier bots are not a joke. They aren't that easy enemies. You never saw them.

In low tier there are easy bots to make it easy for new players.



Ace42X #16 Posted 02 November 2018 - 01:21 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 02 November 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

Please, do produce a new game in which you tell players from the start there are bots because the player population is very low and that if it fails because of lack of players that they will lose their money or time.


Oh harken one-and-all, the self-professed master of logic and facts seems to think we're discussing a "new game" "from the start".  Apparently his logic has a blind-spot when it comes to straw man arguments.
 

Block Quote

You think it would be a successful way to approach launching a game.Show me any game in which this is stated before you spend money. That is my logic, strange you can't see it.

 

Your logic involves criticising a post saying "remove bots from the game" by suggesting it would be a bad idea to make a game in which "there are bots because the player population is very low"...

You don't appear to understand how logic works.
 

Block Quote

WT launched before WoWP's, it took prospective players and kept them simply because of time investment of players who prefer planes to tanks.

 

Anyone who isn't a white-knighting fanboy would understand that this is irrelevant to the point.  It doesn't matter whether my money, as a customer, goes to WT or WOWP as long as I get the best outcome for me.  Deceiving me, a consumer, about the health of the game and thus tricking me into spending money here rather than there is not a good thing, even if it means your favourite game limps a long a little bit longer because of it.

 

Block Quote

The brand of WoWP's is five years old, opinions have been formed and are hard to change.

 

Ipse dixit.

 

Block Quote

Bots are not the greatest problem, they are necessary until the base grows as long waits for a battle would have a more severe damaging effect. Despite what you think, people have no patience to wait around.

 

"Until the base grows" - oh, that's scheduled for next Tuesday, is it?  Just how do you expect the base to grow when you yourself are instructing people to uninstall instead of using the feedback forum to leave feedback?

Mr Logic sees no apparent contradiction there.

 

Block Quote

Here's a worse problem...

 

Nirvana fallacy.  I don't recall this post ever saying "this is the only problem the game has".  Personally I don't have a problem upgrading premium planes with credits, any more than I have a problem upgrading premium tanks with credits.
The slot-machine upgrade system you mentioned earlier is certainly problematic, though.

 

View Postklbergmen, on 02 November 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

 

Same can be said about you.

 

You also seem to think "logic" is a word without a specific meaning.  I assure you I have a working understanding of what logic is and how it operates.  That's why I can identify the fallacies people are committing by name.

 

Block Quote

After 150battles there is no way that you could possibly estimate the future of this game.

 

For example, ad hominem.

 

Block Quote

You barely arrived at the mid tier area and don't even know how to recognize bots.

 

Already explained that mid-tier is pretty much the only game-play experience I care about.  And with a bot-renaming mod installed it's pretty easy to see that no matches exceed 50% human players, and most struggle to have even a third of the players in the game as humans.

These are facts, and accumulating more battles or creeping up the tiers doesn't invert the flow of time and cause these battles I've been playing to be magically repopulated with humans.
 

Block Quote

I agree that it's not good how bots are hidden from new players.

I'm playing this game actively since around a year and I don't see any sign that it is going down soon.

I'm not saying that everything is fine or that I like all the changes that I saw but it still is in development and in it's core it's a very good game.

 

The bots need to be identified more clearly - something WOWS does fine.  It's not a big ask.  And I agree the game has a lot of potential – but being dismissive about what I'm saying with "hey, you've not even got to the top tiers" is figuratively putting your head in the sand.  Player retention isn't an abstract, it's people like me either sticking around because they think the game's worth playing; or uninstalling because, as BravelyRanAway points out, that's an easy alternative if our expectations aren't being met.
 

Block Quote

Often I prefer bots over humans. Battles with 2/3 humans and 1/3 bots are often a total mess. Battles with 100% humans in WoT are often a total mess. Battles with 80-90% bots are much more predictable and I can have a much bigger Impact on the outcome.

 

I'd rather play solo/squad  PVE with & vs bots than the filling system that exists at the moment, given the choice.

That said, I had a look at the recent updates to the FAQ - and it looks like changing bot behaviour is high on the priorities list for upcoming patches and the listed changes appear to address some of the issues I raised here.  That could help mitigate how unsatisfying the current bot population makes the game; but equally it could distract from addressing the underlying problem of player retention.

 

Block Quote

High tier bots are not a joke. They aren't that easy enemies. You never saw them.

In low tier there are easy bots to make it easy for new players.

 

Not sure why this should matter.  Already said repeatedly - I don't really care about the high-tier experience at all; and how many players are going to stick through tens of thousands of bot-matches they hate under the assumption things get better higher up?


Edited by Ace42X, 02 November 2018 - 01:23 PM.


eekeeboo #17 Posted 02 November 2018 - 02:00 PM

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Bots will be removed from the game when there are enough players to not need them. Until then, bots help the queue times not be insane as they were before introduction when 1 v 1 after 1 hour queue. 

HANNIBAL_LECTER_2 #18 Posted 02 November 2018 - 04:37 PM

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sorry,.. you want Wargaming to remove the bots from the game,...because they have a bad performance and the players do not know how to recognize them??. Do you really want to go from  12 vs 12 battles (humans / bots mix teams) to 3 vs 3 or 5 vs 5 fully humans teams?...that sounds like a "Very fun game to play" (sarcasm).

I can guarantee that the bots are much better than most players, about the difficulty to recognize them...come on man!...almost immediately or after a couple of battles you can realize who is bot and who is human. You do not even need a mod for that, you can just tell by their names or you can right click on the names at the beginning of the battle on the team panel, if a menu is displayed on the name is human, and that´s it.

Of course, you can do whatever you want with your money, but can you describe the situation that motivated you to put money in this game with so few battles played?

 

..."and it comes across as trying to hide the fact that the game is dying"... The reputation of warplanes is well known in the gaming industry and the gamer community, the game has been dead for years!!, I'm sorry if you did not know that.

 

07

 

*sorry for my bad english. 

 



BravelyRanAway #19 Posted 02 November 2018 - 04:43 PM

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View PostAce42X, on 02 November 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

"A nothing burger"

 

View Posteekeeboo, on 02 November 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Bots will be removed from the game when there are enough players to not need them. Until then, bots help the queue times not be insane as they were before introduction when 1 v 1 after 1 hour queue. 

 


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johncarps #20 Posted 02 November 2018 - 06:15 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 02 November 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

Bots will be removed from the game when there are enough players to not need them. 

 

i think  my daugther will be able to see that one day in 50 years lol

 

 

 

 

 

or if we look steam stat never mdr

 

(just for info tanatoy says that 2 or 3 years ago when bot were put in the game, and i agree that was a good solution because 1 vs 1 was not very fun in t10, can say v2.0 don't change the things enough ? and i think this game without bot is dead not with 1.x or 2.x but 2 years ago))

 


Edited by johncarps, 02 November 2018 - 06:39 PM.





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