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Remove bots from the game.


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PiotrSzut #21 Posted 03 November 2018 - 02:05 AM

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hello all,

for me, introducing bots had 2 reasons :

- make the game start quicker (not so bad thing...)

- make feeling  some players better than they are ( i dont understand why its important !)

i know they were problems with the numbers of players but it seems its not resolved. Some words from 2.0 fan boys after thousand battles, just remember me what were talking about 1.9 fans too. Ridiculous.

 

personaly, i will alwais prefer fight humans than bots. i have waited for 1h30 for a battle ( v1.5)) 1vs1 and bots never give me same feeling in battles than 1 human. this, is just for me. 

i m not WG !

 

sorry for bad english... im not english !

 

 


Edited by PiotrSzut, 03 November 2018 - 02:06 AM.

Mieux vaut un Piotr plein qu'un jeu d'avion vide !

ARES_the_ONE #22 Posted 03 November 2018 - 07:43 AM

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You can't play this game without BOTS!!! Think and let the crazy ideas!

Ace42X #23 Posted 07 November 2018 - 09:43 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 02 November 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Bots will be removed from the game when there are enough players to not need them. Until then, bots help the queue times not be insane as they were before introduction when 1 v 1 after 1 hour queue. 

 

So...  Never then.  Because, for the reasons I outlined, expanding the player count significantly is mutually exclusive with bots in their current iteration.  And no mention of making the player-count in games more apparent, either.
Unless there's some major development that spikes population counts enough to keep incoming players away from empty-matches indefinitely, it's hard to see how the absence of players and the realisation that you've been tricked into an empty game isn't going to keep alienating incoming players.

 

"We're going to let the game stay in a coma and die of infected bedsores further down the line, because we'd have to stop charging if we pulled the plug and it croaked on the spot" – can see how that financially benefits WGing, not how that benefits a consumer who might be better served spending cash on WT instead.

If you're concerned about wait-times, then there are better ways of addressing the problems caused by low player counts than tricking players into sub-par match after match.

For example, the game features respawns unlike WOWS / WOT.  It would be perfectly reasonable to increase match length (more points required to win, longer before squall comes in), and replace respawning bots with incoming players while the match is in progress.
Squall would stop players being match-made into games that are closing out on time; and it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to come up with workable code that stops matchmaking players into the game if the number of victory points is beyond a threshold either.

I've seen people in the forums talk about a region-merge:  With hybridised matchmaking (preferentially putting people into low-latency matches, but casting the net wider as MM time increases), that has legs for EU-East Coast collaboration at the very least.
 

A marketing push with a *locked* (non-sellable) free premium in the middle of each battle-group to all incoming players would facilitate players taking part in matches across the tiers - it probably wouldn't be super-effective at the lowest tiers (where there's loads of free premiums from coupon codes and offers already); but it would at least make it possible to populate the top battlegroup instead of progression-locking people out of that experience, and would give a grinding tool to mid-tier players at the very least.

But, aside from pursuing a sunk-cost fallacy, why would anyone put effort into addressing the problem if they can sit back and let the WGing brand and hidden bots keep money coming in for doing pretty much nothing?

It's all very well making good-faith argument about why it's necessary to the game's hard-core supporters that they remain and keep the game on life-support; but that ignores what they mean to incoming players.



zumbledum #24 Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:31 AM

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Sorry Ace , but i got to disagree.

 

The WoWP i started playing and the game i like the most is the high bot count games, i like it best when there are around 3 humans per side, yes i admit it makes some games very unbalancd especially in the high tiers, if they have more human controlled il 40's for example. But i like the mix of having the easier bot oponents to shoot down and having to watch out for a few good pilots in the mix. it gives a longer fly out time more kills per sortie , and well its purely subjective but more fun for me.

 

the balance usually feels better i am more likely to feel like i can affect the battle , theres less concentration of the cheesy OP planes. i do get why you would prefer it the other way , i just dont myself.

i would just stop playing if it was pure human pvp mode , like i stopped playing warthunder.



Ace42X #25 Posted 13 November 2018 - 02:25 PM

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View Postzumbledum, on 13 November 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

The WoWP i started playing and the game i like the most is the high bot count games, i like it best when there are around 3 humans per side, yes i admit it makes some games very unbalancd especially in the high tiers, if they have more human controlled il 40's for example. But i like the mix of having the easier bot oponents to shoot down and having to watch out for a few good pilots in the mix. it gives a longer fly out time more kills per sortie , and well its purely subjective but more fun for me.

 

the balance usually feels better i am more likely to feel like i can affect the battle , theres less concentration of the cheesy OP planes. i do get why you would prefer it the other way , i just dont myself.

i would just stop playing if it was pure human pvp mode , like i stopped playing warthunder.

 

If that's your preference, that's fine.  But I question if the reason you feel you can effect the battle more is down to your choice of planes and the tier they are at.  It's a lot harder to effect the game in a Stuka that only reaches a CP once it's already been overrun than it is to do so in a T5 Heavy that can zoom around the map and take on all comers.  I find the exact opposite that you do:  I can get significantly higher PP in a 3vs3 botmatch than the opposing players combined, and still have the match be a relatively uncontested loss because I can't be covering 4 different CPs at once.

As I said earlierI'd rather play solo/squad PVE with & vs bots than the mixed system that exists at the moment, given the choice.

 

My issue isn't so much with the concept of bots in general; but with the current implementation of them – the fact that they are hard (deliberately so) to differentiate from fellow players (just give them different shades / symbols on the map and asterisks by their name, WG!), that at low and mid tier their performance is wildly inconsistent, that it makes the outcomes of matches feel arbitrary.

Shooting dumb-dumb bots down isn't so bad if you've got a mod installed and as such have made sure there's no half-decent human players to just kill you while you're getting free kills on the AI.  It's not quite so fun for people who've misidentified threats and thus get a bogey on their tail because there's no obvious way to tell if there's a non-spec human amongst the turkeys.
 

 



eekeeboo #26 Posted 13 November 2018 - 02:35 PM

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When you could distinguish bots easily, it was unpleasant to be focused every initiation. Your focus shouldn't be players than bots. It should be the biggest thread in terms of aircraft. 

zumbledum #27 Posted 13 November 2018 - 02:54 PM

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while i agree , do we not all just automatically pick on the specialised icons ? i know i always kill them first!

eekeeboo #28 Posted 13 November 2018 - 02:57 PM

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specialised planes are usually a sign a person is able to defend themselves. Your statement you focus them first, proves how unpleasant being able to focus players first is for the game. 

Horcan #29 Posted 13 November 2018 - 03:06 PM

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For me its really simple. Im not interested in a game that should be pvp, and fight against bots. I dont care what level they are and how fast they spam evasive maneouvers that no real human player can. PVP is about satisfaction of shooting someone else down. I have none from shooting a bot. And it tend to fall on the other side, pissing me off, when a bot decide to interfere in a human fight and shoot me down with insane accuracy, after he did nothing the whole game. Bots should not be in a pvp game, period. They are scripted to kill/let you kill , and have a list of priorities that decide what they do, so they never asess the situation and act accordingly.

So for as long as bots exist in pvp mode, im not supporting this game and only play it to farm tokens/gold.


Retired from this censored BS forum

klbergmen #30 Posted 13 November 2018 - 03:21 PM

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Games with high numbers of players are a pure mess. There is no coordination or teamplay and I don't know what else you would expect to be better fighting against humans. Most of these humans are not much bettern than the bots and some of them behave like total idiots.

So I agree with zumbledum.



zumbledum #31 Posted 13 November 2018 - 03:22 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 13 November 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

specialised planes are usually a sign a person is able to defend themselves. Your statement you focus them first, proves how unpleasant being able to focus players first is for the game. 

 

yes i agree that was my point, i didnt put that kick me sign on thier faces WG did. it just seems odd to me if the aim was to stop that behaviour why paint the target

View PostHorcan, on 13 November 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

For me its really simple. Im not interested in a game that should be pvp, and fight against bots. I dont care what level they are and how fast they spam evasive maneouvers that no real human player can. PVP is about satisfaction of shooting someone else down. I have none from shooting a bot. And it tend to fall on the other side, pissing me off, when a bot decide to interfere in a human fight and shoot me down with insane accuracy, after he did nothing the whole game. Bots should not be in a pvp game, period. They are scripted to kill/let you kill , and have a list of priorities that decide what they do, so they never asess the situation and act accordingly.

So for as long as bots exist in pvp mode, im not supporting this game and only play it to farm tokens/gold.

 

im not disagreeing with you on any point you made, but ive been playing this game sporadically for hmm just over a year i think and for me and everyone thats started in that time frame the game has never been pvp , its been a hybrid pve/p game, those of us that like that would be in the same situation if the game ever became pvp.

 

they could have both modes of course , but if they changed into what we have because the ques were too long im guessing thats not likely.



RoyalFlyingCorps #32 Posted 13 November 2018 - 04:39 PM

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Having read this thread, I am imagining the bots have been expelled from the game and, having waited an hour, a PvP game has finally commenced.  It’s a 1v1 game between a Gloster Javelin and a Yak-30.  It lasts the full permitted length for a game and the action consists of the Javelin player diving on the Yak-30, missing with the big guns, and boosting away before the Yak player can turn and shoot at him, repeatedly.   Both players end up with 1,500 personal points.

 

Right now the bots are needed to give decent game play for all players flying all classes of aircraft.  It would be premature for them to be removed.  However, where the OP has a point is in asking what is being done to increase the numbers of people playing the game.  Clearly WG will not release this information, but by observation - I have averaged about 33 games a day since I started playing on 24th November last year - I would say that there has been a slight increase in the player population at low and mid tiers since the Steam release.  It would appear that people are still choosing not to progress to higher tiers for whatever reasons, though perhaps there are a few more players to be found at these tiers too.

 

I’m not a marketing whizz, but surely WG has to find a way of increasing the player population in this game within a few months or so.  It appears to me little is being done in this regard; and I understand the arguments by the Dev team that the game is not “ready” for a large campaign, but if not now - leaving aside discussion of the bugs and optimisation problems that still exist - then when?



houghtonbee #33 Posted 13 November 2018 - 09:57 PM

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https://steamcharts.com/app/790710#7d

 

There aint much in the way of extra players coming in on the Steam platform.



RoyalFlyingCorps #34 Posted 15 November 2018 - 12:06 PM

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I did notice a short-lived rash of streamers trying the game after the Steam release.  I don’t think any of them have stuck with the game or, at least, they’ve chosen not to stream it any longer.  

 

My concern is that established players will drift away from the game before anything significant is done to bring in fresh blood.  It’s over a year since the launch of version 2 (October 10th 2017, I think?) and here we are with a player base that I think may be a little bigger than it was, but nowhere near enough to see the end of bots.



dreambill #35 Posted 15 November 2018 - 04:32 PM

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I believe if all the new plane's trees + regular events with gold to earn and premium planes, were presented in the old game, we would have had a bigger player base today.



GonerNL #36 Posted 22 November 2018 - 12:44 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 13 November 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

specialised planes are usually a sign a person is able to defend themselves. Your statement you focus them first, proves how unpleasant being able to focus players first is for the game. 

 

And even more unpleasant that we are able to focus Specialist players first ... if it's specialist, it's human.

I wish that everyone flew specialist, then we wouldn't need the whos-the-ai-bots mod ... 

 



Ace42X #37 Posted 02 February 2019 - 01:11 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 13 November 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

When you could distinguish bots easily, it was unpleasant to be focused every initiation. Your focus shouldn't be players than bots. It should be the biggest thread in terms of aircraft. 

 

The bots aren't a credible threat, at least up to tier 6 or so, they're just an interference in PVP dogfights.  Your premise is fundamentally flawed right out of the door.

An example being a match I just played where we moved onto a rocket point, nailed the air-defence craft for the team to get it to 3/4s cap, and then failed to cap because 2 AI GAAs were prioritising AA guns over the installations and thus failing to secure enough CPs to tip it over.  This was a totally uncontested point, the enemy team with a human GAA tipped their rocket point quickly and easily.

Any human player on the opposing team trying to shoot down our GAA bots (and consequently farming personal points) would've been throwing because the bots are more useful as distractions to the enemy than they are as team mates.

The reason people install the bot-renamer mod is precisely to avoid the situation you describe.  Hiding the bots is shitty and leads to them noob-trapping new players into prioritising the wrong targets.

klbergmen #38 Posted 04 February 2019 - 11:57 AM

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Low Tier GAA are not very strong. High Tier bot GAA can be very efficient. In the bomber event they were so strong I had problems to get any damage myself. Thank god this was toned down.

This is not a dogfight game, its first of all about capping efficiently. So hunting down enemy humans is not the right strategy.



Ace42X #39 Posted 04 February 2019 - 11:33 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 04 February 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Low Tier GAA are not very strong. High Tier bot GAA can be very efficient. In the bomber event they were so strong I had problems to get any damage myself. Thank god this was toned down.

This is not a dogfight game, its first of all about capping efficiently. So hunting down enemy humans is not the right strategy.

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make.
I don't have any great inclination to see the higher tiers, I'm not interested in those planes;
And even if I personally did, that doesn't change the experience for any incoming player who experiences the low-tier game and on the basis of that experience decides to drop out there and then.

Not sure how a light is supposed to "cap efficiently" if they've wiped out the air-defence planes, but the two bot-controlled GAA can't tip the point before the cap starts replenishing itself – use machine guns on the ground targets the GAA have failed to clear out while the enemy team have already moved on to the next point?

Really I can't see how there is any defence for this.  "Doesn't matter how well you, your human team-mates, or even the team has a whole perform – whether you win or lose is down to the sheer coincidence of the composition the match-maker gives you" would strike me as a fundamentally flawed game experience.

Because that's the issue:  At present bots, and not players, are generally the deciding factor in how a match pans out - at least in Tiers 1-6.  Bots shouldn't be so unreliable that they are the variable (in terms of performance, in terms of strategy, in terms of plane class and thus role) that determines the outcome of a game; they should be a constant that allows players to change the outcome of a game via their performance.

It's not just me experiencing this:  http://forum.worldof...870#entry581870

I appreciate that PP correspond to combat actions rather than macro control of the map; but too many matches see one team get a landslide of PP and lose anyway - invariably down to sheer luck as to which bots choose to go to which CP and at what time.  A couple of human players can only be in one place at a time each; and aside from shooting down the planes at or between those CPs, they can't impact how the bot-fights elsewhere on the map turn out.

There's countless ways the issue of bots could be addressed - tweaks to their scripting, for example; changing how rounds are structured; different map layouts; different ways of handling map control and sectors - but let's be realistic, we're not going to see an improvement any time soon.

So we're stuck with bots that are unfit for purpose.


Edited by Ace42X, 05 February 2019 - 12:07 PM.


klbergmen #40 Posted 06 February 2019 - 12:53 PM

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Your point is that bots ruin the game.

I say bots are in most cases better teammates than humans and with the current low playerbase we anyway need them.

Try in the teamroom one scenario several times. You will see that the bots each time go to the same caps - at least in the beginning when the conditions are the same.


 

When I compare WoWP with WoT then I say WoT has worse matches because there are 100% humans.


 

Forget personal points, they don't mean anything for the outcome of the battle. You can get a lot of them without doing much for your team.






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