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Remove bots from the game.


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Ace42X #41 Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:37 AM

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View Postklbergmen, on 06 February 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

When I compare WoWP with WoT then I say WoT has worse matches because there are 100% humans.


WOT plays significantly better than WOWP and has the player numbers to prove it.

I am aware of the limitations of PP - but as you can't acquire them from idling over empty sectors; or bombing sectors of your own bases; to acquire them means you're shooting down planes or bombing enemy sectors.

 

If they don't translate into wins, it means there are "worthless planes" that you can shoot down at a substantially faster rate than players somehow managing to cap without actually scoring any PP; or there's "worthless sectors" you can cap more effectively than the enemy without it translating to victory.

In both cases I'd say your refutation supports my point:  Bots are worthless:  If you're farming PP on human players, then it means your bots are capable of losing the game despite you guaranteeing they have no interference in what they're doing - whilst you're still alive between kills to help your bots.  If you're farming them on bots, it proves they're worthless compared to nullifying humans who actually tip over points effectively.


Likewise, if you are solo-flipping points in a bomber at a rate faster than any of the opposing attack planes combined but your team are still unable to translate that sector-advantage into victory points, that tells you that the bots are too inept to defend or cap their sectors reliably.

 

Knowing that you can memorise the bot's misprioritisation of sectors and targets on a map-by-map basis isn't a justification for their crappiness or excuse how decisive and arbitrarily their behaviour determines a match outcome.


Edited by Ace42X, 07 February 2019 - 12:22 PM.


klbergmen #42 Posted 07 February 2019 - 02:28 PM

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- You can bomb caps where your useless teammates continue to fly in and die and you will never switch the cap (no matter if these teammates are bots or humans) So technically your doing the right thing but in fact your not - you should try to switch another cap.

- You can rush into the middle airport while there are two rocket bases beside it. You can get a lot of kills there but will not achieve anything. I always see humans doing this and raging if somebody else doesn't do the same.

Just two examples - I can give you a lot more. They show that there are useless PP, useless sectors and useless kills. But this has nothing to do with bots.

Most humans are not much better or even worse than bots.

Fact is that we need bots because there are not enough humans. Often bots are more reliable than humans.

What you need to do is stop differentiating between humans and bots, attack the right caps, attack efficiently, defend efficiently and don't rely on anybody else. Then you will have more good games in WoWP than in WoT because here you have more bots and so less idiots :teethhappy:


 

 



Ace42X #43 Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:56 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 07 February 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

- You can bomb caps where your useless teammates continue to fly in and die and you will never switch the cap (no matter if these teammates are bots or humans) So technically your doing the right thing but in fact your not - you should try to switch another cap.

- You can rush into the middle airport while there are two rocket bases beside it. You can get a lot of kills there but will not achieve anything. I always see humans doing this and raging if somebody else doesn't do the same.

Just two examples - I can give you a lot more.


It's weird that in the two examples you give, you pick ones that the bots are particularly prone to:  Prioritising the wrong CPs (nearby garrisons, for example); and spreading out in order to trickle into CPs on which they just die (usually to human players that they actually outnumber, because the bots suck).  The latter is particularly egregious given that, as it is difficult to identify bots as per the main bugbear of this thread, they end up baiting human players into losing CPs in the process.

I rarely see humans under-performing the bots unless they're AFKing or are being focussed by human enemy players.

You have to "rely" on the bots, because one plane can't be on five different CPs at the same time - doubly so in slow-movers that struggle to traverse the map in good time.  Which means the "right cap" will inevitably be precisely the sort of cap you just criticised as being the "wrong" one - because that's the one the bots seem to have preferred.

 

And yeah, the bots are terrible.  Just saw *3* GAA bots spend most of the round failing to flip an *uncontested* factory.  That is literally the only purpose for them to be in that game, and they can't do it even when there's a load of them with absolutely no distractions and counter-capping!

This is aside from the fact that your examples both rely on other pilots doing the exact opposite of what is being described:  How are pilots "flying in and dying" in sectors and still getting more PP than the enemy?  By nearly killing them 6 times every sortie, and instead of dealing the last killing blow, they leave them to auto-heal before re-engaging?
Because that's the only way you can be out-PPing by a factor of three, and STILL managing to somehow "fly in and die".

Likewise, mid might not be the priority in the example you give, I'd certainly not go there first; but solo-flipping it if it's uncontested isn't going to wrack up substantially more PP than sharing the flip on the missile bases with team-mates if you add that you're also getting PP for contesting them against the enemy team too.
If, conversely, the enemy are foolishly contesting the middle base, your team is losing absolutely nothing by you investing the same number of resources as the enemy *and eliminating those resources too*.

 

And we've established there's not enough humans, I'm pointing out that the lame bots (especially the poor way they're handled in-game) are a major factor in there not being enough humans.

Addendum:  Was just in a match where all the human players on my team were Tier 6; the human players on the opposing team were Tier 7.  But apparently that's fine because our Tier 7 bots are competent enough to carry the game for us humans - oh wait they weren't.

I suspect your admiration of bot team mates is a perspective bias, and what you actually prefer is having fewer human players on the enemy team, which is equivalent to having more bots on your team.
 


Edited by Ace42X, 08 February 2019 - 11:07 AM.


klbergmen #44 Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:22 PM

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The difference between us is that you think the bots are much worse than humans and I lost my faith in most human players.

Bots are ment to replace missing human players. They should be a bit weaker than an average human player so that the noobs don't get beaten up by bots. Bots are not ment to carry the game -  that's something the humans should do.

In mid tier where you have the most humans the battles can be a total mess. I think because there are so many humans that have no clue what they are doing.

In high tier you don't have this problem - because the humans there should have a better understanding of the game - and you have less humans.

Do you really rely on a human which you don't know to do something for your team and at the same time you think you cannot rely on a bot in the same way ? I saw too many stupid human players to expect anything from them. Even experienced players can be forced to do stupid stuff by the missions. Sometimes I also play against my own team to fulfill a mission.


 



Piq_Mastika #45 Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:38 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 08 February 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

In high tier you don't have this problem - because the humans there should have a better understanding of the game - and you have less humans.

 

This is WG fault. The information online is so limited and hard to find. If you find something interesting, probably its outdated.

Ace42X #46 Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:56 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 08 February 2019 - 02:22 PM, said:

The difference between us is that you think the bots are much worse than humans and I lost my faith in most human players.


Human players can be trash, trolls, and noobish.  Bots are *always* trash and noobish - at least until Tier 6 (AKA up until the only point that matters to me, and to anyone who quits the game in frustration).

By your own criteria they're trash (they misprioritise CPs, spread out amongst CPs they can't flip, and trickle into outnumbered CPs - the very examples you give); and by your own admission they're trash by design, so as not to "beat up the noobs".


Apart from you parading your misanthropic cynicism, I don't see why you're trying to argue the case that the bots are tolerable when they so clearly are unfit for purpose.  Look at what your own words are saying:  "Bots shouldn't carry games" - in a game where who wins or loses is arbitrarily decided by factors completely beyond human-players' control!  Pretty much all of them intersecting with how the bots behave.
 



klbergmen #47 Posted 08 February 2019 - 03:24 PM

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Well there is no point discussing about bad bots in low tier because there are so many noobish humans. Imagine there would be good bots that kill everything and assemble in groups before they rush a cap. They have to be crap so that the noobs have something to shoot at. Also GA's are weaker in low tier.

What I do not agree with is that "wins or loses is arbitrarily decided by factors completely beyond human-players' control" Your performance is reflected in your winrate. You cannot win everything but with good performance you will have a good winrate. If you don't have a good winrate you still have to learn how to have a positive impact on the battle.


 

 



Ace42X #48 Posted 08 February 2019 - 04:15 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 08 February 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

Well there is no point discussing about bad bots in low tier because there are so many noobish humans.


Au contraire, "low tier" is literally the only place it matters, because that is where player retention is going to be decided.  And I'm mainly concerned with mid-tier (5&6, although I might consider 4 as an edge case) for the thrust of this argument, although the problems at low tier are significant.

And your reasoning is problematic.  Doesn't matter how many "noobish humans" there are in low tiers if there are also seal-clubbers who players might conceivably focus even if they are noobish; but can't if they can't tell who-is-who effectively, and can't if the bots on the team are unable to assist them meaningfully.


As for winrate - the argument is a thought-terminating cliché that you're using as an ipse dixit.
Imagine a coin-toss video game where the probability is CLOSE to 50-50, but not exactly 50-50.  Imagine one player knows that "heads" is ever so slightly more likely to come up than "tails" is (say the difference is 10xX^YYYYYYYY).  That player is more skillful, and as they are taking it in turns half the time he has the option to employ that knowledge and correctly pick "heads".  And once every few quadrillion games, that skill will be reflected in an extra win over his opponent who is picking entirely randomly.

In this scenario, the skillful player's performance will reliably be reflected in his winrate - but only if he has been playing the game non-stop for longer than the entire history of the universe.
And this is a scenario which assumes the possibility perfect play, something which is abstract in WOWP.

I'd argue that me being frustrated with the situation, along with the lopsided PP vs victory points evidence, demonstrates that in WOWP the relationship between human players' performance and winrate is insufficiently correlated.
I'd go further and say this is one of the many factors responsible for low populations in game, and telling players "hey, if you play 4,500 battles you MIGHT get the impression you've had enough impact to turn-around a tangible subset of them" strikes me as a ridiculous answer to people who are quitting the game before they reach Tier 4 or 5.



klbergmen #49 Posted 08 February 2019 - 04:43 PM

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You played 500battles and barely reached tier 6 but you know what is wrong with this game - the bots are not good enough...

You just reached the area where its getting interesting - everything below tier5 is really only for noobs. Play a bit more and then think again about your theory.



Ace42X #50 Posted 08 February 2019 - 04:59 PM

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View Postklbergmen, on 08 February 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

You played 500battles and barely reached tier 6 but you know what is wrong with this game - the bots are not good enough...

 

Ad hominem.

 

Block Quote

You just reached the area where its getting interesting - everything below tier5 is really only for noobs. Play a bit more and then think again about your theory.

 

And I have very little interest in playing much beyond Tier V; I'm mainly playing in order to have fun in a handful of historic aircraft (Spitfires, Hurricanes, 109s, Stukkas, Mosquitos, JU-88s, Zeroes pretty much) all of which are in the mid-tiers - especially in early/mid war configurations.

So "You out-tier the problem" isn't much benefit to me, I'm afraid. - http://forum.worldof...203#entry575203

Already explained that mid-tier is pretty much the only game-play experience I care about. - http://forum.worldof...245#entry575245

 

Already said repeatedly - I don't really care about the high-tier experience at all; and how many players are going to stick through tens of thousands of bot-matches they hate under the assumption things get better higher up? - ibid.

 

I don't have any great inclination to see the higher tiers, I'm not interested in those planes;
And even if I personally did, that doesn't change the experience for any incoming player who experiences the low-tier game and on the basis of that experience decides to drop out there and then. -
http://forum.worldof...857#entry581857

 

Bots are *always* trash and noobish - at least until Tier 6 (AKA up until the only point that matters to me, and to anyone who quits the game in frustration). -http://forum.worldof...013#entry582013

 

Au contraire, "low tier" is literally the only place it matters, because that is where player retention is going to be decided.  And I'm mainly concerned with mid-tier (5&6, although I might consider 4 as an edge case) for the thrust of this argument, although the problems at low tier are significant. - http://forum.worldof...030#entry582030

 

Not sure how I could spell it out any clearer - even making exceptions for English not being your native language.  Maybe if we group up in a flight, and then play approximately 4,000 battles with me spamming the above in chat, that might be the conditions you personally need to understand the concepts being put to you.  Because that's apparently what you consider to be a prerequisite for understanding something.



Horcan #51 Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:06 PM

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Bots are bad, no matter the tier, period. Unless youre brain dead , sooner or later you memorize each type of plane behaviour. There is no "portofolio" from which they pick a random behaviour with the same plane. 10 or a hundred bots in same plane will behave the same frontally. Fighter/multirole are always safe to head on with any plane because they turn 100 %. Heavies will always ram. GAA are retarded and only sometimes shoot back if perfectly head on. And so on. The only skill is the accuracy with which they kill you from behind, from distances and during maneouvers that no human can shoot you from. So no , bots will never be replacement for humans , they do not understand particular sitations and act according to some scripts. So unless they manage to attract enough people to have full human games, this game is doomed. Anyone but a handfull of addicts get bored to repeat the same thing over and over since bots play the same.
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klbergmen #52 Posted 13 February 2019 - 10:00 AM

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I think there has to be a healthy relation of humans and bots per battle.

Pure PvE battles are too easy and will become boring.

1v1 and 2v2 are often unfair because the humans are not machted properly. They can be fun though.

Pure human battles with only ADA bots also create problems. You get things like lemming trains.

In mid tier you can pretty often have battles with 7-10humans per team. I think these are the good battles, I would not want to have 15humans per team.



Gentle1 #53 Posted 06 June 2019 - 08:55 PM

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TL,DR let me tell you, i have been in WoWp since closed beta, back then, when you only had one life, at certain times you would wait for mentioned 5 mins, and then have a fight 2 vs 2 on a huge map. it was boring as hell. If you had a decent game which was usually tier 4-5-6 epople would sometimes either focus me the entire game just waiting for my name to appear, and then 4 guys focus you. Trust me this is far better it's the reqason i came back after 4 years or so being on leave...

 


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zen_monk_ #54 Posted 06 June 2019 - 09:03 PM

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View PostGentle1, on 06 June 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:

TL,DR let me tell you, i have been in WoWp since closed beta, back then, when you only had one life, at certain times you would wait for mentioned 5 mins, and then have a fight 2 vs 2 on a huge map. it was boring as hell. If you had a decent game which was usually tier 4-5-6 epople would sometimes either focus me the entire game just waiting for my name to appear, and then 4 guys focus you. Trust me this is far better it's the reqason i came back after 4 years or so being on leave...

 

 

I confirm fully.

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Frateras #55 Posted 29 September 2019 - 12:01 AM

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Bots are easy to calculate. They almost do similar actions. For example the two Heavies of a Base can be easily killed. Up to T6 it is pure routine. The issue is, when you got human players with the same plane Its often completely different. They often  try to ram and got much better guns with a bigger range. It's a different way of gaming. There are great dogfights sometimes with maneuvers never seen before. I don't like this bot routine, because I would be a much better player without it. 

FieFaFoo #56 Posted 16 October 2019 - 01:08 PM

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I like the fact that you can command 1 bot to do the thing that you want. Of course if you have 'an enemy on our tail" and a bot on the other side of the map responses. That's still stupid.

 

My suggestion would be max 6 players on the team and 6 bots. At the beginning of the game each player gets a wing-man. That can be a fighter, multifighter, GAA or even a bomber. The game gives you a bot at random but does it on the fact to keep teams +/- equal. And it's up to the player to give a command what that bod-wingman has to do. If the player doesn't give a command the bot will do what a bot will do. Of course don't expect that a bot-bomber will clear your tail. Or that a bot-fighter will capture that factory. There are limitations what a bot can do and will do.


Edited by FooFaFie, 16 October 2019 - 01:47 PM.


Frateras #57 Posted 18 October 2019 - 06:54 PM

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I think that's a very good idea but technically difficult to realize. May be each player should have his personal bot so that he can train the KI with shortcuts for special actions.




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