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Matchmaker: Myths and Reality


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GonerNL #1 Posted 08 December 2018 - 11:43 AM

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Nice story ...

Where is it explained how every time one team gets the human B-32 ace and the other team a moron bot B-32 ?? Or even worse, a lower tier bot Do-17M ?


Edited by GonerNL, 10 December 2018 - 12:48 PM.


Horcan #2 Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:53 PM

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And they disabled comments, simply because they dont care what we think. It's a useless wall of text that i couldnt read whole, explaining how they fail to make a decent MM, that at least try to be fair and balanced. And first step would be to mirror balance or remove flights. I rather not play a game, than play one that is lost from the start.

_Neverm1nd_ #3 Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:40 PM

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View PostHorcan, on 08 December 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

And they disabled comments, simply because they dont care what we think. It's a useless wall of text that i couldnt read whole, explaining how they fail to make a decent MM, that at least try to be fair and balanced. And first step would be to mirror balance or remove flights. I rather not play a game, than play one that is lost from the start.

 

And what is wrong with the forum as a platform for discussion?

GonerNL #4 Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:48 PM

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Nothing.

So could we discuss my question and Horcan's complaints here ? And not discuss what is the best platform to do that ... ?


Edited by GonerNL, 10 December 2018 - 12:50 PM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #5 Posted 10 December 2018 - 01:49 PM

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I think match-making is one of those aspects of a game that provokes endless debate, whether or not it is working well.  However, it is certain that WoWP needs to revisit theirs; in too many games I see as many as three human ground attack players or bomber players on one team and none on the other team.  If the human players on the other team are all in fighters or multirole aircraft then at the very least the game play is ruined, since it’s necessary constantly to find and destroy the GAAs and bombers, and most likely the game is lost.  Why the matchmaker cannot balance human player/class combinations across teams instead of putting them all in one team baffles me.

_Neverm1nd_ #6 Posted 10 December 2018 - 01:56 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 10 December 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Nothing.

So could we discuss my question and Horcan's complaints here ? And not discuss what is the best platform to do that ... ?

 

Sure, back to Horcan's complaint - Adding additional criteria leads to a significant increase in the waiting time for the battle, which is very critical  and is not included in short-term plans.

RoyalFlyingCorps #7 Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:08 PM

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Fighting in the kind of battle I’ve just described degrades the playing experience badly.  We’re already waiting a minute or more for high tier battles; a few seconds more to stop all the human GAA or bomber players appearing in one team wouldn’t be that much of a penalty compared to having next to no chance of winning a game.

Horcan #8 Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:11 PM

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Well you should include it in the most urgent plans, because its the main problem that cause abandoning the game early ( if not just rage quitting the game and playing something else ), along with the win requirement for dailies and battlefield loot. You have games start faster, with one side fighting the bots, because all humans on the other side just quit when they see unacceptable odds to fight a op flight or planes they cant reach.

klbergmen #9 Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:40 PM

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View Post_Neverm1nd_, on 10 December 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

 

Sure, back to Horcan's complaint - Adding additional criteria leads to a significant increase in the waiting time for the battle, which is very critical  and is not included in short-term plans.

 

With the old matchmaking we at least had mirrored teams. Now one side can have bombers (for example) and the other not.

The old matchmaking was fine regarding waiting times, so this can't be an excuse.

Also the general statement that a more complicated MM causes more waiting time is not true. This depends mainly on how intelligently this is programmed. If I wait 1minute for a match then this does not mean that the MM is permanently calculating this minute.

I really like the change that was done to bots but there were other changes that had a bad impact.

 

Edit: Overall the MM is fair because it is just random. But you also have to think about what Impact an "unfair" matchmaking has. If a player knows that he can end up in matches where "he doesn't have a chance" then this has a very bad impact, no matter how often this happens or if this also can give easy wins. People don't want to play "unfair" games.


Edited by klbergmen, 10 December 2018 - 02:51 PM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #10 Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:45 PM

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^ Players quitting games early has become very frequent now and that is also ruining games.  The match maker must be made to balance human player/class combinations better in my opinion, because many in the player base have learned what battles are nearly a “lost cause” and don’t play them.

GonerNL #11 Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:45 PM

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View Post_Neverm1nd_, on 10 December 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

Sure, back to Horcan's complaint - 

 

What about my question ; how can one team get a human ace B-32 and the other team a lower tier stupid bot Do-17M ? That doesn't sound balanced, regardless of the composition of rest of the team.

 

Btw ; about the waiting time, I would rather wait 1 minute longer than get another roflstomp (either way) ...

 



arcticstorm123 #12 Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:13 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 10 December 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

 

What about my question ; how can one team get a human ace B-32 and the other team a lower tier stupid bot Do-17M ? That doesn't sound balanced, regardless of the composition of rest of the team.

 

Btw ; about the waiting time, I would rather wait 1 minute longer than get another roflstomp (either way) ...

 

 

Yeah, also some aircraft types same tier with the same role are just outright better, was flying an ME1099 last night with a IL40 on my team, opposing team had 2 IL40's, I lost count of the number of times I was on target and plane just evaporated under the fire from one of those things, and their rear gunner did the same to attacking fighters, with the speed advantage was pretty much nothing you could do to stop them, led to a very frustrating game.

 

Admittedly not fully upgraded on the ME1099 but I don't think it will make a huge difference against those things.


Edited by arcticstorm123, 10 December 2018 - 03:14 PM.


GonerNL #13 Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:27 PM

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View Postarcticstorm123, on 10 December 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

also some aircraft types same tier with the same role are just outright better, 

 

But MM doesn't work with types and roles ... it works with 'two categories of classes - PvP and PvE'  :unsure:  



klbergmen #14 Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:29 PM

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The worst I saw was 2 humans against 100% bots - in a PvP game, not PvE (less than 1min waiting time)

klbergmen #15 Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:34 PM

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The worst I saw was 2 humans against 100% bots - in a PvP game, not PvE (less than 1min waiting time)

 

2xMe against 2xIL in my opinion is fine. The MM should not try to match aircraft types to have more variancy - even though some types are stronger than other. But it should try to fit teams, humans and roles.


Edited by klbergmen, 10 December 2018 - 04:34 PM.


m249jim #16 Posted 10 December 2018 - 05:01 PM

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At least the MM is better in WoWP than WoT, that horrific at present if you tier 7 or 8, and the to a lesser extent with much goes for WoWS, with the 3/5/7.

 

I don't have a problem with the MM in WoWP at present, it's pretty balanced, unless your in a battle with only one other human player, and their are in a tier above you, although this seems worse at the low tiers.

 

 

 

 



arcticstorm123 #17 Posted 10 December 2018 - 06:36 PM

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View Postm249jim, on 10 December 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

At least the MM is better in WoWP than WoT, that horrific at present if you tier 7 or 8, and the to a lesser extent with much goes for WoWS, with the 3/5/7.

 

I don't have a problem with the MM in WoWP at present, it's pretty balanced, unless your in a battle with only one other human player, and their are in a tier above you, although this seems worse at the low tiers.

 

 

 

 

 

You beat me to it, on World of Warships, they have had these arguments for years! 

 

As I understood it, we have so many bot's in Warplanes due to a smaller player base, but that's not the case in Warships (or as you say WOT), and the PVP teams, no matter how they appear on the loading screen, can often be horrendous players, and you find no end of videos on YouTube or subjects on forums saying "how can teams/players be so bad?" Flamu and Jingles often post videos on this subject of "idiot teams".

 

Rank is also no guide in Warships as you can find players at Tier 10 who are seemingly clueless,  I grant you Warships have started selling a Tier 9 Premium recently but this subject of bad Tier 9/10 players hasn't just started to be a thing, it's been going on for years, at least in that game.

 

I think expecting entire teams of competent human players is a non starter, if this isn't affected by other factors in the game design, so I guess it's better if they produce better bots, at least for GA's and bombers, the fighter bots can already be pretty lethal.

 

What would be nice in Warplanes  would be if we could have a pure PVE mode like Warships Co-Op games, because then you could at least test new stock aircraft, and get them to a decent level without affecting PVP game play, and as they say in Warships, play Co-Op (PVE) till you feel your ready for Random battles (PVP) so at least new players are familiar with the game.

 

 


Edited by arcticstorm123, 10 December 2018 - 06:43 PM.


m249jim #18 Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:58 PM

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The bot thing for other WG titles will be quiet interesting in the future, in a recent video by Quickybaby he mention that bots are being tested/introduced in the Asia server (you can watch the video for full details), OK the Asia server isn't fully representative of other servers as it's owned by a separate company and has some unique features/issues, but that they are contemplating bringing in bots alone is interesting.

 

Having a Co-Op/PVE mode in WoWP would be useful, maybe in a similar way to the WoWP PVE, as it would effectively act as a live training area; although if run in a similar way to WoWP, thinking that at a minimum Specialist progress/daily missions would need to be disabled with this format, otherwise it would be abused/used to stat pad more than the current format is.

 

 



_Neverm1nd_ #19 Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:36 AM

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Many thanks for the suggestions. 

This aspect of game mechanics (MM) is much more complicated than it seems. You can not add a few lines of code and it's in the bag. Here it is necessary to take into account many factors - online, class, level, specialist (as someone suggested for creating teams), etc. Making changes requires an integrated approach and edits of one part requires taking into account one or several other factors, it's like a chain where one part connected with another. 

And let's be honest - even after making some changes, discontent with MM won't  stop, there will be proposals to take into account the number of pilot's skills, since it is not fair,  or request to put the same aircraft in the teams because one bomber is  stronger than the another, and in general it is always easy to find the reason of defeat.
In a nutshell: MM cannot be perfect and certainly requires periodic revisions, however, there must also be a balance between “honesty” and comfortable waiting time. As I said earlier, making such corrections will lead to a significant increase in waiting time, which is critical and unacceptable.
P.S As klbergmen rightly mentioned - here is also randomly, one battle you have two live AA ( players), in the other, they are against you, there is no such thing that you are always in the weakest team.



GonerNL #20 Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:12 AM

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Well ... here's my question (see OP) again ; how comes that one team gets an ace, human bomber in a tier VII B32 and the other a bot who doesn't know how to bomb in a tier VI Do-17M ? Or variations like RB-17 and B-32 ... it makes a huge difference and can not be balanced (in practice) by giving the other team a GA. 

I can not explain unbalances like that by reading the MM blog.






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