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apartclassic #1 Posted 14 March 2019 - 06:44 AM

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Was it ever explained why on earth were the bots - especially multiroles - scripted in the way that makes them keep climbing higher and higher? Why are they going to twice their optimal altitude, and just hang there on the verge of stalling? What is the purpose of this, apart from annoyance and waste of time?

Imho this is both pointless and ridiculous, especially so on lower/mid tiers where plane's performance suffers greatly when out of optimal altitude. I already mentioned encountering I-16 at 1500-2000m, and am under the impression I see more of this (maybe because they are now scripted also to 'take over zones more aggressively'?). For one, they are eternally on the verge of stalling - try approaching and shooting one, the first thing that happens is them going into a dive or stalling outright. I don't think it mimics players' performance, and it is basically exceptionally poor flying. For two, this renders a lot of those bots virtually useless. All they can achieve there is stalling, which happens immediately when being shot at and trying to maneuver. For three, they are an increasing annoyance, due to their extremely low speed and extreme accuracy. I don't suppose it's a refined and perfected tactics based on WW2 experience of pilots fighting either in exceptionaly fast planes (Me262) or defending against such planes (yes, it's a real issue, very fast plane versus a very slow one, and the difficulty in getting a firing solution or denying  getting one). So.. why? It's both unrealistic and inconvenient (of course I have an agenda, duh!). Is it that difficult to add a line in their script limiting the climb to some reasonable altitude, say their opti plus X meters? Their behaviour simply negates any differences or innate characteristics of each plane, their speeds and altitude performance. Just make them generic multirole fighter and let them climb. It's all like 'I r a plane, I needz to fly to the sun!', and to hell with the basic question of 'can I' or 'should I'. This concludes me morning rant, have a nice day :)


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0berhessen #2 Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:53 AM

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View Postapartclassic, on 14 March 2019 - 06:44 AM, said:

Was it ever explained why on earth were the bots - especially multiroles - scripted in the way that makes them keep climbing higher and higher? Why are they going to twice their optimal altitude, and just hang there on the verge of stalling? What is the purpose of this, apart from annoyance and waste of time?

Imho this is both pointless and ridiculous, especially so on lower/mid tiers where plane's performance suffers greatly when out of optimal altitude. I already mentioned encountering I-16 at 1500-2000m, and am under the impression I see more of this (maybe because they are now scripted also to 'take over zones more aggressively'?). For one, they are eternally on the verge of stalling - try approaching and shooting one, the first thing that happens is them going into a dive or stalling outright. I don't think it mimics players' performance, and it is basically exceptionally poor flying. For two, this renders a lot of those bots virtually useless. All they can achieve there is stalling, which happens immediately when being shot at and trying to maneuver. For three, they are an increasing annoyance, due to their extremely low speed and extreme accuracy. I don't suppose it's a refined and perfected tactics based on WW2 experience of pilots fighting either in exceptionaly fast planes (Me262) or defending against such planes (yes, it's a real issue, very fast plane versus a very slow one, and the difficulty in getting a firing solution or denying  getting one). So.. why? It's both unrealistic and inconvenient (of course I have an agenda, duh!). Is it that difficult to add a line in their script limiting the climb to some reasonable altitude, say their opti plus X meters? Their behaviour simply negates any differences or innate characteristics of each plane, their speeds and altitude performance. Just make them generic multirole fighter and let them climb. It's all like 'I r a plane, I needz to fly to the sun!', and to hell with the basic question of 'can I' or 'should I'. This concludes me morning rant, have a nice day :)

Nothing in this game is based on realism. Nothing is based on real WWII tactics.

I agree that Bots seem to have an incredible accuracy and as well an incredible climbing rate.

I guess they use Motorcooling as Equipment and thats what they activate when climbing behind you. It gives Boost for additional 10 seconds - depending what amount of the original Boost is left and what kind of Multirole it is, it can be all together 30 seconds! of Boost.

As soon as they stall they are usually easy targets (from my experience).

Good luck hunting them


Edited by 0berhessen, 14 March 2019 - 07:54 AM.

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GonerNL #3 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:28 AM

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Noticed some very funny bot behavior lately ... like IL-10 and P-40 M-105 at 2000 meters dog-fighting ?! 

Opt altitude for those planes is less about 800 meters.



Horcan #4 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:43 AM

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More things were changed to bots behaviors lately, from the fact that some of them gets dedicated to chase some human with the only purpose to take it out ( probably  due to that human being alive for too long and ruining his medal ), both by following a bombers even at 3-4k meters altitude or following a GAA at 50m even if it goes far outside of any nearby base, to the fact that almost no bot plane try to evade head on collision, even fighters and multiroles.

apartclassic #5 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:58 AM

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I believe the scripting doesn't discriminate between planes. Yes, it's heavies chasing bombers and yes, it's mostly multis targetting the ground attackers, but outside of that all bots behave roughly the same. 'Must... climb... higher....', 'must.... cap... more.... aggresively....' - are the two directives driving all bots. The bots are increasingly just generic enemy planes, disregarding their plane specs (beside the type-specific differences mentioned above). I understand seeing ILs at 1000 meters, quite not long ago bots just didn't grasp the concept of going OVER an obstacle and were often stuck cruising in one spot forever (and it still happens sometimes), so the script was changed and they indeed started navigating more sensibly. Still, the problem is bots are... bots. They know no limits, 'climb higher' is infinite, so is the usage of boost, so is the trigger-time. The only limit imposed on bots is along the lines 'if it kills me before I kill it, disengage' - am I right, WG, or am I right? Bots are using the existing mechanics, but taking it beyond limits of what any reasonable human would do. All I'm asking for is imposing some limits - otherwise we are indeed moving towards 'generic fighter', 'generic heavy fighter' etc, because new players do learn those things from bots and fly any and all planes in exactly the same way. And my agenda, mentioned in the first post, is that I'm getting aggravated with seeing bots do things that nobody sane would - like climbing far above what their machine is designed for.

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Frantiszek_W_R_E #6 Posted 14 March 2019 - 09:09 AM

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I am annoyed by heavy bots that attack bombers flying high. They really will die to fly behind you until it's not hitting you all over the map. Even a human player often forgives himself and he has to shoot you down and end. The strangest thing is that you often see situations where a heavy bot after shooting down you suddenly hangs. The fact that it shoots a bomber from 400-500 m and which does not hit anything, until it suddenly buries you with a series of 800m, that you will catch fire, damage the engine, etc., is completely unintelligible.

I think that WG is trying to balance things too hastily, but before they introduce it they will not check how it actually works.

The last example of a damage box for ground targets. They reduced 5%, which caused that bombers and assaults of lower levels often have a problem to do something more.
 


zen_monk_ #7 Posted 15 March 2019 - 12:06 PM

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View PostDiscontinued, on 15 March 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

Can we insult bots,

 

 

No. I got banned for "st*u bots" at their opening mindless greet.

 

And I hate Hasso. Honestly, looks like they programmed "every Hasso will chase only zen monk".


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Ykazumi #8 Posted 15 March 2019 - 03:34 PM

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View PostDiscontinued, on 15 March 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

Can we insult bots,

 

Because I hate Vasily and Erskine 

 

Bots can insult and humiliate you in stead, but not the other  way around. Bots boast of themselves by calling themselves bots overlords.

I can see they are here more and more to overcome humans as superior AI warbots, with the wowp as a testing ground for their masters to improve unlimited capabilities of bots machines.Bots dare to call humans Xtupid,since they learned from humans in the same manner as the google bot 2 years ago. Bots have no mercy, no blood and no warmth,no compassion, whereas humans are real people with heart,blood and mind. I fear bots fighters/heavies are a big challenge to us human players and are a true enemy to us. WE the humans ought to help each other, protect and survive. Otherwise the WG will be filled with heartless coldblooded terminator machines. I temble to think.

sincerely,

 

 


Edited by Ykazumi, 16 March 2019 - 09:47 AM.


Senjougahara #9 Posted 16 March 2019 - 01:44 PM

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You see all kinds of crazy potato play from bots these days. I had a pancake follow my bomber up to 4800 meters, the pancake's service ceiling is 4000 meters, its guns have below 800 meter range. If it even tried to point up to shoot at me it would stall, but it would follow me for the entire match with zero chance of actually doing any damage. I've had bot F2H try the same thing and even though they can reach 4500 they're so slow up there they can't ever catch you. If you go down to 4000 meters you get light fighters and multiroles trying to get you with no hope, and even if they eventually get there once again you can just climb.

Also at high altitude bombers can actually turn faster than Me 262 HG II/III so they're even more hopless at getting you :trollface:

It's like bots have this obsession with being as high as possible all the time no matter what, and it's stupid because at that altitude they can do literally nothing, they can't catch you so they do zero damage, while a bomber can still drop bombs. Bombs will have terrible accuracy but you can still play, so the bot is removing itself from the gameplay while not removing you from the gameplay, it's a really suboptimal move on the bot's part.

 

By the way human players do exactly the same thing so it's not like bots are doing anything different :hiding:



Cruditatem #10 Posted 16 March 2019 - 01:48 PM

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View PostSenjougahara, on 16 March 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

You see all kinds of crazy potato play from bots these days. I had a pancake follow my bomber up to 4800 meters, the pancake's service ceiling is 4000 meters, its guns have below 800 meter range. If it even tried to point up to shoot at me it would stall, but it would follow me for the entire match with zero chance of actually doing any damage. I've had bot F2H try the same thing and even though they can reach 4500 they're so slow up there they can't ever catch you. If you go down to 4000 meters you get light fighters and multiroles trying to get you with no hope, and even if they eventually get there once again you can just climb.

Also at high altitude bombers can actually turn faster than Me 262 HG II/III so they're even more hopless at getting you :trollface:

It's like bots have this obsession with being as high as possible all the time no matter what, and it's stupid because at that altitude they can do literally nothing, they can't catch you so they do zero damage, while a bomber can still drop bombs. Bombs will have terrible accuracy but you can still play, so the bot is removing itself from the gameplay while not removing you from the gameplay, it's a really suboptimal move on the bot's part.

 

By the way human players do exactly the same thing so it's not like bots are doing anything different :hiding:

 

I can agree with this. Happens often and i think always ...WTF...mine can't climb this high 

apartclassic #11 Posted 20 March 2019 - 04:13 PM

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I'll add one more infuriating thing about bots - they are actively seeking to ram now. I don't mean the situation where it happens because one is late with evasive action. Bots do calculate the odds, and when they're in favour, they will change their flighpath to ram. With the ramming mechanics being completely shoddy (light fighters survive collisions with heavies or attack planes, or the plane with more hp is destroyed while the one with lower hp survives, etc etc) it's another thing that makes bots totally irritating to fight. One HAS to avoid going head-on, because of added accuracy for bots (and if you're in a plane with lower agility, you're toast when the bot turns for you) - btw all the difference between weaponry stops to matter, since your 30mm will miss while all the 7.7mm of the bot will hit - and then go around bots in wide circles, not to get rammed. I know heavies will ram a light by default, but this is new, and it's no longer just heavies. Bots run head-on, inflicting a lot of dmg, then ram to finish it off. I for one do not find it 'funny', 'challenging', 'requiring a change in tactics' or anything like that. It's just battling a code, an algorythm that tells the bots to kill. Again, welcome Skynet, bye bye fun/skill.

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Piq_Mastika #12 Posted 21 March 2019 - 07:22 AM

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View Postapartclassic, on 20 March 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

I'll add one more infuriating thing about bots - they are actively seeking to ram now. I don't mean the situation where it happens because one is late with evasive action. Bots do calculate the odds, and when they're in favour, they will change their flighpath to ram. With the ramming mechanics being completely shoddy (light fighters survive collisions with heavies or attack planes, or the plane with more hp is destroyed while the one with lower hp survives, etc etc) it's another thing that makes bots totally irritating to fight. One HAS to avoid going head-on, because of added accuracy for bots (and if you're in a plane with lower agility, you're toast when the bot turns for you) - btw all the difference between weaponry stops to matter, since your 30mm will miss while all the 7.7mm of the bot will hit - and then go around bots in wide circles, not to get rammed. I know heavies will ram a light by default, but this is new, and it's no longer just heavies. Bots run head-on, inflicting a lot of dmg, then ram to finish it off. I for one do not find it 'funny', 'challenging', 'requiring a change in tactics' or anything like that. It's just battling a code, an algorythm that tells the bots to kill. Again, welcome Skynet, bye bye fun/skill.

 

The plane's ramming damage goes up in this order: LF>MRF>HF>bomber>GAA. As you said the bots calculate the odds, so if you are playing a LF, be sure no one will evade your rams, you have to dodge. Here is an old, but still correct info and calculations about the ramming.

svadilfari #13 Posted 21 March 2019 - 08:05 AM

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heavy bots got a real hard on for you if you´re a bomber

meanwhile i just peacefully cruise around at 4k, not harming a fly xd



Renwor #14 Posted 21 March 2019 - 08:09 AM

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View PostSenjougahara, on 16 March 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

You see all kinds of crazy potato play from bots these days. I had a pancake follow my bomber up to 4800 meters, the pancake's service ceiling is 4000 meters, its guns have below 800 meter range. If it even tried to point up to shoot at me it would stall, 

 

 

That was not bot, that was me ...:hiding:

EDIT: interesting now I cannot get out of "quote box"


Edited by Renwor, 21 March 2019 - 08:10 AM.


 


GonerNL #15 Posted 21 March 2019 - 08:31 AM

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View Postapartclassic, on 20 March 2019 - 05:13 PM, said:

It's just battling a code, an algorythm that tells the bots to kill. 

 

Yep ... call me paranoid, but not only tells them to kill, but also who, where and give them locations. 

 

Block Quote

EDIT: interesting now I cannot get out of "quote box"

 

Happens often ... especially when you first edit the quote and then want to type your reply. I now first type my text under the quote box and then edit the quoted text.


Edited by GonerNL, 21 March 2019 - 08:34 AM.


zen_monk_ #16 Posted 21 March 2019 - 08:50 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 21 March 2019 - 08:31 AM, said:

 

Yep ... call me paranoid, but not only tells them to kill, but also who, where and give them locations. 

 

They've programmed a certain Hasso bot exclusively for me :D

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anonym_32bOyLluvSuR #17 Posted 21 March 2019 - 10:14 AM

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Yes, I've also seen some bizarre bot behavior when at high altitude, I'm picking up lots more kills from bots stalling at high altitude, who or what they are chasing is beyond me?

 

This ramming thing is getting rather old as well.

 

Not to mention the 3 or 4 bots sitting over an uncapped base who somehow seem to lack the ability to capture any more than 75% of a flag.Unless its always been that way?

 

They need to get rid of the stupid bot talk at the beginning of a game as well. who are they fooling. 

 

Actually having said that I did see a human player at tier 3 trying to converse with a bot that said "lets go clockwise" 

 

 



klbergmen #18 Posted 21 March 2019 - 03:49 PM

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View PostDiscontinued, on 21 March 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

Actually having said that I did see a human player at tier 3 trying to converse with a bot that said "lets go clockwise"

 

 

 

I also did this when I was new - that's not funny !

paradigmshift #19 Posted 21 March 2019 - 04:15 PM

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View PostFrantiszek_, on 14 March 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

I am annoyed by heavy bots that attack bombers flying high. They really will die to fly behind you until it's not hitting you all over the map. Even a human player often forgives himself and he has to shoot you down and end. The strangest thing is that you often see situations where a heavy bot after shooting down you suddenly hangs. The fact that it shoots a bomber from 400-500 m and which does not hit anything, until it suddenly buries you with a series of 800m, that you will catch fire, damage the engine, etc., is completely unintelligible.

I think that WG is trying to balance things too hastily, but before they introduce it they will not check how it actually works.

The last example of a damage box for ground targets. They reduced 5%, which caused that bombers and assaults of lower levels often have a problem to do something more.
 

I see a lot of bots now chasing my bombers. In Do217m I was at 3500m and suddenly a bf110e is right there at the same level which almost impossible for me to to in a bf110e. I go higher and no problem the bot starts climbing. Suddenly at 600-700ms apart with almost no hits I am on fire. 

Since bots like to chase me maybe it would be a plan to pick up a few in tow and take them to a neutral area where they will take no part in the fight. This would give team the advantage if I occupy 3 bots.

Also they would be easy target for human heavies to come up behind bomber fixated bots. 

 






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