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Gamedesign that encorages teamkilling


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Killtech #1 Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:26 AM

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A little overstatement, but technically it does:

Effimov medal, kill x planes while attacking enemy sectors and missions requiring all that kind of stuff have a big problem: they require the enemy to hold sectors in the first place. I realized that for some missions of the Tu-1 operation playing good is specifically not helping. its really frustrating when your team is taking superiority almost every game, then how are u supposed to do such missions? okay, then you deliberately start playing inefficiently in the hopes that the enemy team will take a few positions more. then you realize that 50% of times your bots will do quite a good job of taking important sectors even without your help - which is really annoying.

 

there is the general problem that these kind of missions inevitable force you to take sectors fast. your own team at this point becomes unwanted competition for the few remaining zones not yet under your control. and of course the more you take the harder it get for the enemy to do so since command centers and rocket bases very quickly undo all of their progress. lastly the more bases you take the faster the victory bar fills up stealing you time to finish the mission.

 

so here i am thinking of ways of how to sabotage my team and trying to help the enemy the best i can so i have a chance to succeed (u cant destroy your own GT btw - that would be too easy). when i think about it, this does not sound like a great design in a PvP based game. well, i leave this for the devs to mediate about.

 

EDIT:

In this context i might add that GT focused classes have a problem in this game when the enemy is not doing good enough, fighters can always attack or defend or even camp the enemy spawn when they get bored. for bombers and GAA this isn't an option so often enough they are left without a purpose. especially the low tier are designed badly for them because there are fewer zones to take over (mostly 3) and those flip easily to one side. 

 

so how about GAA would be also allowed to defend? why not add tanks units moving on the ground and attacking bases, similarly like command centers spawn bomber squads? note that the GAA we have in the game were actually designed to attack small moving targets on the ground rather then factories - that's more of a bombers job.


Edited by Killtech, 15 April 2019 - 01:01 AM.


Horcan #2 Posted 15 April 2019 - 08:25 AM

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The problem is not that medals are too hard to obtain, the problem is they tend to happen when you dont need them, not on demand. Few games you miss it closely by a few points or few seconds, you quickly frustrate. And games should be about having fun and relaxation, not rage in frustration and smash your keyboard. And on top of that, various requirement with the most medals being needed leads to the fact that you kind of need planes of all classes, some of them actually top tiers ( like Efimov which i think its hard with less than tier 8 ), which means relatively new player have absolutely no chance of doing this type of marathons, either because they dont have necesarely planes, or they arent that skilled at the game to score each medal. And for a game that struggle not to die, i dont think asking for real money from such new players is an incentive to make them stay.

Discontinued #3 Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:49 AM

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Yes the medal for the special operations don't take into account "when" for instance I got the Akumatsu medal 1 mission prior to needing it, and therefore would have to repeat this achievement yet again....

 

Oh and shooting down 5 planes in a single game with a rear turret for this IL mission seems only to act as a paywall!

 

 :B

 

Edit on topic i too have noticed more TK-ing and as a result have decided to embark on this wholesome endeavor,


Edited by Discontinued, 16 April 2019 - 11:15 AM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #4 Posted 17 April 2019 - 12:54 PM

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I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I helped a friend obtain an Efimov medal by not only keeping his tail clear instead of doing my plane’s proper job, I also crashed on targets in our own bases to flip them over to the enemy so he could then recap them.  This is clearly not in the spirit of the game and it is silly of the WoWP team to encourage such “sabotage”, as the OP puts it.

I disagree with medal achievements as missions in a scheme such as the current one for the TU-1, but an improvement would be if earning a medal during the course of other missions counted towards the mission requiring it.  Thus, if I earn a Kozhedub during the early missions, the later mission requiring it is completed out of sequence.

BravelyRanAway #5 Posted 17 April 2019 - 01:05 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 17 April 2019 - 12:54 PM, said:

I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I helped a friend obtain an Efimov medal by not only keeping his tail clear instead of doing my plane’s proper job, I also crashed on targets in our own bases to flip them over to the enemy so he could then recap them.  This is clearly not in the spirit of the game and it is silly of the WoWP team to encourage such “sabotage”, as the OP puts it.

I suppose it boils down as to whether a player's ego is so poor that they are willing to live with a lie and do those that help them see them as really deserving of fake tat and faux respect.


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RoyalFlyingCorps #6 Posted 17 April 2019 - 01:12 PM

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I suppose it boils down to having missions that are dependent on luck and, without which, may take hours and hours of frustrating game play to complete.  Under those circumstances players may resort to whatever methods are available to complete them and any resulting disrespect is reserved for the WoWP team that set up the foolish conditions for completion of the missions in the first place.

BravelyRanAway #7 Posted 17 April 2019 - 01:38 PM

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It's still fake tat when you fake it, regardless of the WoWP teams conditions, to argue otherwise is an exercise in excusitus and deflection.

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Discontinued #8 Posted 18 April 2019 - 09:35 AM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 17 April 2019 - 12:54 PM, said:

I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I helped a friend obtain an Efimov medal by not only keeping his tail clear instead of doing my plane’s proper job, I also crashed on targets in our own bases to flip them over to the enemy so he could then recap them.  This is clearly not in the spirit of the game and it is silly of the WoWP team to encourage such “sabotage”, as the OP puts it.

I disagree with medal achievements as missions in a scheme such as the current one for the TU-1, but an improvement would be if earning a medal during the course of other missions counted towards the mission requiring it.  Thus, if I earn a Kozhedub during the early missions, the later mission requiring it is completed out of sequence.

 

Thanks for the tip, I'm trying to help a buddy complete the bomber missions and this tactic of crashing in order to flip the cap is great!

RoyalFlyingCorps #9 Posted 18 April 2019 - 10:34 AM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 17 April 2019 - 01:38 PM, said:

It's still fake tat when you fake it, regardless of the WoWP teams conditions, to argue otherwise is an exercise in excusitus and deflection.

 

I'm not sure what your point is.  I'm clear about my point though.  If the WoWP team sets missions in rewards marathons that are stupid, then players will respond by doing things not in the spirit of the game to complete them and, in my view, justifiably so.  I would suggest you reserve your condemnation for the WoWP team's bad ideas, not players with innovative ways of getting around them.

BravelyRanAway #10 Posted 18 April 2019 - 01:16 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 18 April 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:

I would suggest you reserve your condemnation for the WoWP team's bad ideas, not players with innovative ways of getting around them.

By innovative, you mean cheating. I know where to lay condemnation without delving in whataboutery.


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klbergmen #11 Posted 18 April 2019 - 01:22 PM

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First of all suiciding in caps is more efficient to keep it neutral. In this way nobody gets any points.

Second I think such tactics only make sense if there are only bots or bot-like humans in both teams. If there is a decent player in this battle that is not helping in this kind of manipulation I would not even start trying such things.

In WoT people and even clans got banned because if this kind of rigging.

In WoWP it is kind of necessary because of the mission design. So I agree with RoyalFlyingCircus. The marathons are not about winning battles, they are about grinds (which is fine) and medals that require a lot of luck (which is not ok). This kind of manipulation can be necessary to compensate for missing luck.

Worst example is "5 turret kill" mission. The easiest way to do this is counting in with a friend, hope that he ends up on the opposite side and then provides easy kills for your turrets. Without this "cheating" its nearly impossible to fulfill this mission. But even without this "cheating" this mission makes you totally disregard your role in battle and more or less play against your own team by not bombing and flying at the wrong altitude.

In general I'm against rigging but in WoWP I think its fine.



RoyalFlyingCorps #12 Posted 18 April 2019 - 01:26 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 18 April 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

By innovative, you mean cheating. I know where to lay condemnation without delving in whataboutery.

 

Show me where in the rules it says crashing on a base to flip it to the enemy in an attempt to help somebody complete a farcically stupid mission is "cheating".

I won't hold my breath and my point stands.  You can be a purist all you like and if you prefer to fail to complete missions of such a nonsensical character, be my guest.

BravelyRanAway #13 Posted 18 April 2019 - 01:31 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 18 April 2019 - 01:26 PM, said:

I won't hold my breath and my point stands.  

You don't have one.


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Killtech #14 Posted 19 April 2019 - 01:01 AM

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Suiciding in cap is obviously not cheating in this context: you only need to do it when your team is already dominating and steam rolling the enemy - in which case a victory is ensured regardless. attempts to prolong a match by trying to balance out the teams a little is usually actually to everyone's advantage as it makes the battle more enjoyable for either side. And this is very far off from the elaborated rigging schemes that WoT players employed on several occasions in competitions where they competed against other players via stats rankings and thus had a unfair advantage. but here there is no harm done.

 

By the way, all of the missions and medals i originally mentioned are significantly easier to do when the teams are well balanced. and i was shocked to see that my winrate is currently close to 70% (!?!) which means i encounter only few such even matchups (even though i never play in a flight). as such my team dominating the enemy is so far the biggest obstacle for me during these missions and as one can guess its really frustrating to fail due to playing too effectively: flipping 3 zones early on mostly on my own, bots flip another one and my team just holds everything for the remaining time while i am flying circles and doing nothing (!) in my IL stuck with 300+ cap points desperately hoping for the enemy manage to get at least one zone back to gimme a chance... it sucks!

 

However the design problem is deeper and more general then just the marathon missions. again: GAA and bombers are robbed of their game-play whenever their teams take over the map and even worse, if they can defend it. this takes any opportunity from them to score points and progress their class missions because unlike all the 3 fighter classes they don't have any mission objectives that don't require attacking sectors!!

 

And lastly i can't even fathom how an idiot like me can even achieve such a high win rate to begin while playing solo without any focus to boost my stats. It does tell me that there must be other design flaws, but that's another topic i guess.


Edited by Killtech, 19 April 2019 - 01:05 AM.


Piq_Mastika #15 Posted 19 April 2019 - 05:32 AM

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This can be easy fixed if a team killer gets -cap points and -1 kill for the result. WG can program the bots/AA/ADA to attack the friendly team-killer, too.

RoyalFlyingCorps #16 Posted 19 April 2019 - 09:33 AM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 18 April 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

You don't have one.

 

Piffle.

BravelyRanAway #17 Posted 19 April 2019 - 12:12 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 19 April 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

 

Piffle.

Exactly!


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RoyalFlyingCorps #18 Posted 19 April 2019 - 12:14 PM

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How nice to find agreement on your piffling. :)

BravelyRanAway #19 Posted 19 April 2019 - 02:53 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 19 April 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

How nice to find agreement on your piffling. :)

Sure....whenever I see your clan members shiny tat, I will at least know they didn't earn them like others.:)


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RoyalFlyingCorps #20 Posted 19 April 2019 - 03:07 PM

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Gosh, somebody who cares about other people's medals.  I salute you.  What a pity you couldn't see the actual point of the discussion and chose instead to tilt at a windmill.

Well, since your comments in this thread have been without exception like a broken pencil, let me leave you to polish your medal hoard and to imagine how impressed everybody else is at both its size and the honourable manner in which each and every one of them was earned.  I'm sure you must get many approving comments, but sadly, I must deprive you of any more of my attention. :)




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