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Reduced rate of fire on some aircraft

shooting speed rpm 30mm

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Poll: 30mm canons rpm (13 members have cast votes)

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Do 30mm cannons need rate of fire buff?

  1. No, they are fine (7 votes [41.18%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 41.18%

  2. Yes, but keep the dps (1 vote [5.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  3. Yes, but reduce dps (1 vote [5.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  4. Yes, but increase range (1 vote [5.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  5. Yes, but decrease range (3 votes [17.65%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.65%

  6. Yes, but keep the overheating (number of shots) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Yes, but decrease the overheating (number of shots) (4 votes [23.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.53%

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Piq_Mastika #1 Posted 30 April 2019 - 01:52 PM

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All of us met the 30mm's slow rate of fire in mid-tiers. Most of these guns were designed to shoot at decent rpm, but somehow they are drastically reduced in WOWP. In the game the high-caliber gun is a burden, not advantage, as it should be. I suggest to restore the rpm of these guns, while keep the DPS (maybe the overheating rate, too). Here are some examples how the guns used to be vs how are they in WOWP:

Stuka 2x37 mm BK 3.7 in game rpm: 45; historical rpm: 160

Ta 152/ Do 335/ BV 203 30mm MK 103 in game rpm: 60/90; historical rpm: 380/420

FW 190D/Me 209A/ BF 109GMe 109 TL 30 mm MK-108 in game rpm: 240; historical rpm: 650

Ki-94-II / Ki-84 /Ki-94-I / Ki-162-I/-III 30 mm Ho-155-II in game rpm: 200; historical rpm: 450

J7W1/2 /J8M 30 mm Type 5 in game rpm: 170; historical rpm: 350

MIG I-250/MIG 9 /MIG 15 37 mm N-37 in game rpm: 180; historical rpm: 400

Yak 7 37 mm Sh-37 in game rpm: 30; historical rpm: 170-185 

Yak 9 /Yak9U /SU 9 45 mm NS-45 in game rpm: 30; historical rpm: 260-280

I-215 2x57 mm RShR-57 in game rpm: 60; historical rpm: 230-257 (no English source)

UK 30mm ADEN in game rpm: 300; historical rpm: 1200-1700

FW 252 / HG2/HG3 / P1102 30 mm MG-213/30 in game rpm: 330; historical rpm: 1000-1200


 

I'm sure there are plenty of planes and 30mm guns I've missed. These planes are the hardest ones to play and they need to be made more user-friendly.



Spartan_93 #2 Posted 01 May 2019 - 10:27 AM

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Block Quote

  I suggest to restore the rpm of these guns, while keep the DPS

 

Well, if you double the RoF, you would half the damage per shot => then you would have the same "gun feeling" like a 20mm cannon.

If you just increase the Rof, you would have some kind of "old Bf 110 C6", absolutly no fun for all other players.

 

In the end it is more a question about gamebalance and gunplay/gunfeeling, and less a question about historical correctness. So, I would say, with some practice and the right equipment/pilot skills, they are ok, hard to play but hard hitting too.



RoyalFlyingCorps #3 Posted 01 May 2019 - 10:28 AM

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I think there may be a case to be made for individual planes, but an across the board change making these guns easier I think may be too much, especially as we've just had the unfortunate change to the stalling mechanic.  In most cases I find mounting gas-operated action to increase the rate of fire is all the improvement I need.

apartclassic #4 Posted 01 May 2019 - 10:48 AM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 01 May 2019 - 10:28 AM, said:

I think there may be a case to be made for individual planes, but an across the board change making these guns easier I think may be too much, especially as we've just had the unfortunate change to the stalling mechanic.  In most cases I find mounting gas-operated action to increase the rate of fire is all the improvement I need.

 

This^^ . Also, don't ask for historical or semi-historical RoF without considering the damage done. In the game guns were balanced and generally the effect of high calibre was toned down. Historically a single 30mm round from Fw-190 A-8 could knock a wing off a B-17 or a Lancaster, there were cases of single hits shearing off entire engine. Whereas I would like this game to be more historically accurate, I am not entirely sure more dps across the board is a good idea. Leave at least some differences between planes, in regard to firepower too. TTK (Time To Kill) is already very short once you get a good position, most planes can be shot down in a single burst (i.e. in time it takes the guns, regardless of calibre, to overheat) if you place your shots well. If you don't - imho it's a question of the shooter, not the guns themselves.

 

EDIT cheers for the research done, good job


Edited by apartclassic, 07 May 2019 - 06:36 AM.

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paca_madaidhean #5 Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:29 PM

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I found this 

if this was in the game would we play ??

real life total fire time eg. till ammo runs out 

The short answer is about 15 seconds of total fire, delivered in seven to eight two-second bursts.

A Spitfire MKI and II had eight (8) Browning .303 machine guns, each with 300 rounds each and a rate of fire, when sustained, at 1,150 rounds per minute. A total weight of 2,400 rounds was carried. Each gun delivered about 19 rounds per second, so 152 rounds per second total.

The Air Ministry found in tests, (the ones that determined eight guns vs. the previous two and then four per wing), that a two second burst at close range, meaning closing in below 300 yards, with eight guns, gave the best effectiveness and balanced armament weight with maneuverability. A two-second burst would deliver over 300 rounds potentially in a 6-foot circle at 300 yards.

I think the best on-scene source is Adolph Gysbert “Sailor” Malan, a renowned and pathologically anti-Nazi South African pilot in the Battle of Britain.

If anyone remembers the 1969 movie, “Battle of Britain”, the character, “Skipper” was played by Robert Shaw, was based on Malan.

Sailor Malan offered this to those he trained:

"TEN OF MY RULES FOR AIR FIGHTING"

  1. Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON'.
  2. Whilst shooting think of nothing else, brace the whole of the body, have both hands on the stick, concentrate on your ring sight.
  3. Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out!"
  4. Height gives You the initiative.
  5. Always turn and face the attack.
  6. Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best.
  7. Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
  8. When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as top guard.
  9. INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are the words that MEAN something in Air Fighting.
  10. Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!

Edited by paca_madaidhean, 12 June 2019 - 09:32 PM.


Piq_Mastika #6 Posted 13 June 2019 - 05:37 AM

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View Postpaca_madaidhean, on 12 June 2019 - 11:29 PM, said:

I found this

if this was in the game would we play ??

real life total fire time eg. till ammo runs out

The short answer is about 15 seconds of total fire, delivered in seven to eight two-second bursts.

A Spitfire MKI and II had eight (8) Browning .303 machine guns, each with 300 rounds each and a rate of fire, when sustained, at 1,150 rounds per minute. A total weight of 2,400 rounds was carried. Each gun delivered about 19 rounds per second, so 152 rounds per second total.

The Air Ministry found in tests, (the ones that determined eight guns vs. the previous two and then four per wing), that a two second burst at close range, meaning closing in below 300 yards, with eight guns, gave the best effectiveness and balanced armament weight with maneuverability. A two-second burst would deliver over 300 rounds potentially in a 6-foot circle at 300 yards.

 

But there is no MG/autocannon, who shoots 1-2 shoots per second, right? The ammo carried is proportional to in game heat time (although both of them apply in real). I really would like to see real rof's, especially on the iconic planes (like Stuka, Fw190's, Ta 152, Yaks). This increase of the range and "sniping" is added only to compensate the low rof, but I don't find it much fun.

paca_madaidhean #7 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:04 PM

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truly  yes  I would like to see an faster rate of fire or a longer fire rate still waiting for the 

mozzie to get the 32 pounder quick fire  fitted lol 

 


Edited by paca_madaidhean, 13 June 2019 - 09:07 PM.


Ziptop #8 Posted 11 August 2019 - 02:09 AM

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Good grief no! 

 

It's bad enough being thrown into a huge map in a light prop driven fighter while jets basically plough across the map murdering all in their path before you can even see them coming without arming them with chain guns too! 

 

Buddha Buddha at 1200rpm strapped to the front of a jet heavy fighter that can cross the map before you have even completed a turn? I don't see that being much fun.



Piq_Mastika #9 Posted 12 August 2019 - 05:43 AM

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View PostZiptop, on 11 August 2019 - 04:09 AM, said:

Good grief no!

 

It's bad enough being thrown into a huge map in a light prop driven fighter while jets basically plough across the map murdering all in their path before you can even see them coming without arming them with chain guns too!

 

Buddha Buddha at 1200rpm strapped to the front of a jet heavy fighter that can cross the map before you have even completed a turn? I don't see that being much fun.

The HF's 30 mm guns at tier 9/10 (HG3 and Javelin) are with good enough rof - almost like the 20 mm's. Tiers 7-8 mostly has several 20 mm or slow 30 mm guns. Indeed, there are maneuverable planes with slow AF guns and this is the crap part. For example all the high tier Japanese, all snipers, MiGs has good maneuverability, but not the guns for hitting a maneuverable target. In addition, the planes who are GAA in the game were used as fighters, too. I'm sure many people would like to put speed enhancements on IL's or Stuka if their guns were able to hit something in the air.



RoyalFlyingCorps #10 Posted 20 August 2019 - 07:21 AM

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Just imagine the Vulcan cannon at a real life 6,000 rpm...I reckon that would make the Starfire the most popular plane in the game as it would shred a target nearly instantly.

Piq_Mastika #11 Posted 20 August 2019 - 10:52 AM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 20 August 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Just imagine the Vulcan cannon at a real life 6,000 rpm...I reckon that would make the Starfire the most popular plane in the game as it would shred a target nearly instantly.

If they keep the DPS and overheating there is no difference we can feel between 3000 and 6000 rpm. My post targets the very slow rpm's like the snipers and slow GAA guns.






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