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The best rounds with the worst players... (or next time you ask for human team)


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ASharpPencil #1 Posted 21 September 2019 - 11:23 AM

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What can I say, this just terrible and no fun at all.
Not trying to shame anyone.

 

This game as small player base, 1/2 of the games you do good but lose to Bots since your 2nd real member is SO SO bad...
I think human player in losing team need to get bonus as winner team.

* only if his 1st in team.

 

WG give as a break, something need to be done.
If after 2-3 games like this I log off, only the human members lose, its not fun to get XXX by BAD line up round after round when you are not the 1 to blame...

 

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Frateras #2 Posted 21 September 2019 - 01:16 PM

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Yes its always bad to be best of the loosers, but that makes me thing about the planes I fly and whether its possible for me to make the game with them. Otherwise I would fly much more exotic WNR-Killers.

Das einzig Gefährliche am Fliegen ist die Erde.

 

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Emtod #3 Posted 21 September 2019 - 02:04 PM

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View PostASharpPencil, on 21 September 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:

What can I say, this just terrible and no fun at all.
Not trying to shame anyone.

 

This game as small player base, 1/2 of the games you do good but lose to Bots since your 2nd real member is SO SO bad...
I think human player in losing team need to get bonus as winner team.

* only if his 1st in team.

 

WG give as a break, something need to be done.
If after 2-3 games like this I log off, only the human members lose, its not fun to get XXX by BAD line up round after round when you are not the 1 to blame...

 

 

http://forum.worldofwarplanes.eu/index.php?/topic/52495-why-dont-the-losers-get-materials/

#19

 

I can understand you, its hard to win when you get 39%-winrate-braindeads in your team, but everyone of us get the same MM/same teams.

Dont think that most of my "teammates" are better.

 

If i may give you an advice:

Try to do your best in such games - sometimes you can even win such games.

But more important is to win the other games, where the odds are better.

 

Oh and here another advice:

Sorry to say that, but your sceenshot cant show where and how you scored your personal points - the highest score in PP means nothing.

Try to play tactical - you can either play for the victory or for your PP and very seldom for both.


Edited by Emtod, 21 September 2019 - 02:27 PM.


prawiejakzywiec666 #4 Posted 21 September 2019 - 02:45 PM

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Like Emtod said - play with your brain. I lost Today couple of games on 4th tier just because of poor support from my teammates not knowing what and how to do (heavies flying low and dogfighting or assault aircrafts shooting other aircrafts instead of supporting team by demolishing ground targets). It's life... Try hard not only with the score but think twice what to do... Choose your target wise, if you are to be shot down - get out of the sector, protect important sectors not just fly away and shoot everything out from the skies.

Good luck!


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jss78 #5 Posted 21 September 2019 - 02:47 PM

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Yeah it remains my biggest "ask" from the devs that a losing team player, playing very well, gets some more rewards.

 

Obviously you can't reward a loser too much, because there  needs to be a strong incentive to play for the win. But currently you lose too much on a loss:

 

  • no 2x (or bigger) XP reward
  • many missions not progressed on a loss
  • no materials

 

My favoured solution would be to give a small amount of materials to losing team player who played exceptionally well. Not too much, so you're still incentivised to play for win instead of just farming points. Say give 25% of the materials you'd get on equal-score win, so if you get 10k+ personal points you get a handful.

 

I think this is important because this game can get INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING due to the small  player pool. Consider a typical situation where you have 3 humans per side. So you get 2 humans randomly picked out of 5 on your team. Let's suppose of those 5 players, 3 are pretty good and 2 are relatively weak. If you happen to get (and there's a significant chance you will) the two weak team mates, there's VERY little you can do. If the enemy's 3 guys score 10k points each and your team mates struggle to break 2k, you're all but guaranteed to lose. It will likely NOT help if you do 15k or even 20k points instead of your regular 10k. In Warships etc. with 12-vs-12 humans guaranteed, this type of thing doesn't happen, because the laws of statistics guarantee somewhat more equal teams. With 3-vs-3 humans we're at the mercy of the MM lottery each game.

 

IMO it's specifically because of the small player counts that the well-playing loser needs to be given something. Otherwise the frustration is just too much.


Edited by jss78, 21 September 2019 - 02:49 PM.


ASharpPencil #6 Posted 21 September 2019 - 04:13 PM

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This is again game from today, I was not "Ace" in that, but man you cant win like that.

Sry I dont see any FUN in that, and dont see any reason to be a paying customer.
dont get me wrong, I am not looking for pay 2 win, but to get AI members in your team that do noting ?????

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prawiejakzywiec666 #7 Posted 21 September 2019 - 05:15 PM

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View PostASharpPencil, on 21 September 2019 - 04:13 PM, said:

This is again game from today, I was not "Ace" in that, but man you cant win like that.

Sry I dont see any FUN in that, and dont see any reason to be a paying customer.
dont get me wrong, I am not looking for pay 2 win, but to get AI members in your team that do noting ?????

I'm afraid you still don't get it. To put it simple:

1. Number of personal points reflect only your overal performance in shooting / destroying ground targets it DOES NOT MEAN YOU PLAYED THE GAME TACTICAL AND ORIENTED TO WIN. You just were shooting good.

2. There are games where I score lets say 7000pts but I'm very satisfied with it. Why? Me or we (depending how many players with brain were playing the game) were controlling it from the start.

 

Some examples

- we capped a missile base and I was doing my best to protect it with my wingman capping other sectors supported by the missile. There was not much to shoot at but from the early begining we did our best to win,

- another example - map with 2 factories, airport and garrisons. A lot of guys start and go directly to the middle airbase thinking that they will fly around there and OTHERS will cap the factories. You will end up with huge score - lets say 15-18k pts but still YOU WILL LOOSE to a tactical played game. The others will cap the factories and support their bombers with for exaple a single heavy fighter,

- next example - you fly a heavy fighter and follow directly first seen aircraft over a sector which is 1500m below you. Ok you killed him over a factory but simultaneously bombers from the enemy team dropped all they had and the factory was taken by them. You got your points they have the factory. Maybe you should pick your target a little bit wiser. There is no rush... Climbing back let's say with German heavy on 4th tier takes a while... A while you do not have at the moment because the bombers are flying away to bomb another sector,

- you want more? Command Centre was taken by the red team. You are there dogfighting and finishing damaged enemy plane - as soon as possible BECAUSE THE PERSONAL SCORE IS WHAT MATTERS. I would wait a while and let the CC be active again and capable of taking over - then I would shoot on a damaged plane. What is the difference? I would get some points in order to cap the sector. Finishing off 3 bot light fighters over CC means that most likely you would GET IT BACK.

 

Simple things but very effective - use your brain not only fire button.

I hope I helped you understand why you are loosing the games.

Regards,

P.S. Sorry for the mistakes but I'm writting from a mobile.

 


chikken


ASharpPencil #8 Posted 23 September 2019 - 04:31 AM

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good morning, 

It seem you are mistaking, or I didnt explain my self good enough.

The problem I am trying to present is not my performance, from what I am able to do I am satisfied.
I go against the illogicality of AI players who do nothing all game, it makes no sense, negligent  and poor programming by the developers.
And in addition to the unreasonable division of human players, on one side after the battle I check each one and see what his averages are, and check those on my side and see that they are just less good than average.
Again poor programming, it is necessary to compare the quality of the teams.
And if not, to punish the player who came first in the losing team, why go against him twice? he did is best but lost do to bad programming...



Discontinued #9 Posted 23 September 2019 - 07:06 AM

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The problem of low player base becomes more apparent at higher tiers. However, as others have said its not all about PP I've picked up an Akumatsu with 3-4k pp at tier 10 you can score low and still win by capping.

 

Bots are a law unto themselves we all had the experience of getting destroyed by a bot with 1-2 shots, or had that game whn you score 20K pp but still lose....

 

I'm afraid to say there is little we can do about bots....its just a fact of virtual life

 

Im hoping this PVE mode that has been rumoured to arrive at some stage, is good

 

Try not to get frustrated when playing, i find it helps to be slightly dispassionate, the less you care for the win the more likely it is to happen...

 

But I do agree it would be nice for the top placed loser to receive something 


 

 

 "May cause the explode problem"


apartclassic #10 Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:19 AM

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You seem to still not get it, dear OP. The bots in general perform better than an average human player. You might get a bot with a low PP score in battles, but there are many factors contributing to that. As you were already told (with good examples), the final score in the battle is about 'playing the plane-specific mission', not 'good' or 'bad' play. Inevitably you will land in pure bot battles with you as the only human, on high tiers - and you will see it's a struggle, usually a lot more challenging than a battle with humans. Bots come in 3 different skill levels, and while low tier bots really are very ineffective (and let's be honest, reflect a new player's level of skill quite well), high tier bots are murder machines. The example you gave in your first post is tiers 3 and 4, with the weakest bots. At high tiers you will see bot GAA outscore humans, you will be one-shotted by Potap in his I-211 or I-215, you will be rocketed by bot HGII or B.V. two or three times per battle. Bots scale, and on high tier they are over the level of an average player, with average scores better than humans (even though with less 'frags' than humans - but better at 'plane-specific mission', aka chevrons). If a bot ends a battle with 0 score, it is quite possible a human player on the other team quit the battle (or got disconnected and didn't come back) - in which case the game eliminates one bot (after the bot gets killed), to keep the odds even. I have seen battles with bots in 10k+ PP range while humans ended up with 5k, or bots having the most chevrons, or bots placing top 3 on both teams - and many of us lost battles to bots. Do not ask for generic 'better bot', because you don't know what you're asking for - their current state and scripting is indeed awful, but 1) it has evolved over time and already makes them effective, and 2) eventually they are better than most humans in this game. Last but not least, SKYNET - nuff said.

 

As to punishing the losing team, it is the only point I agree with you on. It would be nice if the best player/s on the losing side got something out for their effort, and I'd say it should only be materials (certainly not anything mission-related, nor tokens). After all they are on the losing side. Keep it competitive, because it helps players to improve. In Conquest mode winning is no longer about the mouse wiggling skill and collecting frags, and I'm affraid that if the losing side also got rewards (with some -1 modifier on numbers or something like that), this whole thing would degrade even further into 'don't care if I win because I still get cookies' thing. Aka kindergarten. It's arcadish and dumbed down enough already, in the name of 'appeal' and 'accessability'.

 

Final item on the list is the MM. It has a lot of threads and lots of complaints already. The current state of MM, where NOTHING but the presence of flights/plane types/tiers are taken into consideration (contrary to conspiracy theories) was conceived to do away with long queue times. I'm guessing you didn't experience 5 or 7, or even 9 minutes waiting times for battle (typical experience for everyone pre-2.0)? If the game was to match player's stats while matchmaking, this is what would have happened. Also, how would you propose to do it for the better players on higher tiers? Two 'noobs' with ~40ish WR per one 'ace' with 60+ WR, for the sake of balance? Return to different level of bots in a single battle? Flawed as it is, MM at least puts you into action not longer than 1:40 after you clicked Battle button, and believe me, it was a welcome change. To have similarly skilled players in a single battle is simply not possible with the low population we have (where skill gap is huge), it would be feasable only with a lot bigger playerbase to choose from (statistics - the bigger the pool, the more equal the average). Till then we have what we have, and for many if not most players it's a struggle anyway. They struggle enough against more experienced players, don't make it even harder by adding 'better bots' to the mix.

 

I will give one example in return, proving it's the players that matters, not bots. Bots are pretty consistent in their scores/results, players differ wildly and you simply can not match them 'fairly'. One of my battles, and although I'm not a good reference point, it shows that differences between bots and players aren't that glaring when you go higher up in tiers. Plus - in all honesty, you think it would be fair to reward the best player on the losing side with the same rewards as the best player on the winning side?

 

Spoiler

bonus item - this score in a winning battle and with Premium account yielded 410k silver. Horten is gud.


Edited by apartclassic, 23 September 2019 - 09:35 AM.

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Discontinued #11 Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:20 AM

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Get with the times man winning is just so passe, its common knowledge that winning went out in 2018

 

Tip this years black is you guessed it.

 

Losing

 

 

 

 

Stop being so conformist with this "win" mentality you are only falling for their sneaky WG trap........

 

Also its highly unfashionable :B

 


Edited by Discontinued, 23 September 2019 - 09:22 AM.

 

 

 "May cause the explode problem"


dreambill #12 Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:22 AM

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I think rewarding the 1st place or 3 best places of loosing side with (fewer) materials is a good step that it doesn't destroy the "wining" concept.

NOT best HUMAN place, 1st place in general, if a bot is there no bonus for player.



zen_monk_ #13 Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:38 AM

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Only 1st place from the losing team.

 

If the bot is first, player second - sorry mate, try harder next time.

 

If there are several players on the losing team, again only the first one. Here's your incentive to play, to try hard even in obviously lost battles. Give your best, be No1 in your team and be rewarded as per win.


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Renwor #14 Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:44 AM

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Maybe, there should be some different kind of resource for being first of losing team, you know, something like "potato medal"  , or not-original car parts, you know, this look-alike chinesse (or worse)  spinoff. You can then use the material "as original" but with a risk the upgraded part will break down (or disassemble into parts)


 


Discontinued #15 Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:32 AM

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I think Apartclaissic is right just materials and maybe "wooden spoon medal" for 1st place loser. When you collect enough wooden spoons you can trade them for a victory even when you lose!

 

There solved it no need to worry,

 

 

 

I'm sure this will be implemented soon, as its probably the best idea since the sliced bread and the flamethrower!


 

 

 "May cause the explode problem"


apartclassic #16 Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:36 AM

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View PostDiscontinued, on 23 September 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

I think Apartclaissic is right just materials and maybe "wooden spoon medal" for 1st place loser. When you collect enough wooden spoons you can trade them for a victory even when you lose!

 

There solved it no need to worry,

 

 

 

I'm sure this will be implemented soon, as its probably the best idea since the sliced bread and the flamethrower!

 

Also it's wooden = cost-effective and easy to model in 3D. Brilliant!


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Discontinued #17 Posted 23 September 2019 - 05:44 PM

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Why do we only get 5 likes

 

This is an injustice of the highest order,

 

I suggest a forum like buff to 500 likes a day as a minimum :rolleyes: 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

 

 "May cause the explode problem"


ASharpPencil #18 Posted 23 September 2019 - 07:35 PM

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I think I find it hard to play with so many AI bots, came back to this game after 3 long years in WOWS, playing as CV main.

Been there alpha dog. 

But after the change of CV play style, with 1st person shooter feeling, I said to myself, that if they (WG) force me to play aircraft as 3rd person,  and not CV as strategic game, I will play WOWP again. 

It looks better and more logical than what they did over there. 

 

As CV I had a lot of contact with my teammates, good and bad, but since I was a very good CV player,  my team loved that I used to bring the win...

 

Over here I dont have any feedback, its solo for the win, there is no team play, not from the bots or human player's. 

 

So most of the time I feel it's up to me.

 


Edited by ASharpPencil, 24 September 2019 - 05:16 AM.


apartclassic #19 Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:23 PM

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View PostASharpPencil, on 23 September 2019 - 07:35 PM, said:

I think I find it hard to play with so many AI bots, came back to this game after 3 long years in WOWS, playing as CV main.

Been there alpha dog. 

But after the change of CV play style, with 1st person shooter feeling, I said to myself, that if they (WG) force me to play aircraft as 3rd person,  and not CV as strategic game, I will play WOWP again. 

It looks better and more logical than what they did over there. 

 

As CV I had a lot of contact with my teammates, good and bad, but since I was a very good CV player,  my team loved that I used to bring the win...

 

Over here I dont have any feedback, its solo for the win, there is no team play, not from the boys or human player's. 

 

So most of the time I feel it's up to me.

 

 

And it's a good way to think of the game - especially on low/mid tiers. Play as if you were there alone, don't count on other players or bots to do the job. Key thing is that YOU know what and when needs to be done, and are willing to sacrifice high score for being effective. Just like prawiezywiec wrote, you win by doing the right thing at the right time, not by racking up score. If your teambuddies actually have a clue about the game, it will make it easier for you. If they don't (which is so often the case), at least you won't be dissapointed. Every win counts as x5 with this mindset, because you know you did the good thing; losses hurt less, because you can't be everywhere, and we're only humans, while bots are Skynet emanations. Keep it up, gl/hf.


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Discontinued #20 Posted 24 September 2019 - 09:53 AM

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Yes its all to easy to beat yourself up and think, I must be noob, or have I forgotten how to play?

 

Some fights you just cant win, like facing a flight with a bomber and GAA, or simply going up against veteran players with specialized planes whilst you have a team who can barely scrape 40% wins with 6k battles..loool

 

 

Also you can just get losing streaks..we've all had them in various games, no one ever complains about a winning streak except me...

 

At present you cant subdivide and spit into two players. although this is a feature they could introduce!

 

As i said before I try to be slightly dispassionate and focus on my own performance after all that's the one thing I do have control over...

 

I would rather  a 14k pp defeat over a 3k pp victory any day....


 

 

 "May cause the explode problem"





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