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Winter Trials. Part 2


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GonerNL #41 Posted 06 January 2020 - 10:45 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 06 January 2020 - 06:44 PM, said:

Simply, that's selfish.

...

But I repeat myself.

 

Yes, even after I admitted that yes, I'm selfish !! I play this game for myself, not for you.

And it's not just that the other team has specialists, it's the kind of planes, like completely enhanced tier X bombers with 5 skill gunners. Prawie, I just do not believe that you can kill them with a light fighter (is that what you were saying ?) ; these things start hitting you from 1.5 km away, before you can even aim. 

Just for the heck of it I just played all battles to the end ; 9 utter defeats (only 1 had a fighting chance) and 2 victories. Horrible, no fun at all.

 

 


Edited by GonerNL, 06 January 2020 - 10:47 PM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #42 Posted 07 January 2020 - 06:11 AM

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If you're going to quit, just don't play.

0berhessen #43 Posted 07 January 2020 - 06:40 AM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 06 January 2020 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think people who quit battles early should lose that particular aircraft for a period of time, perhaps 15 minutes for the first offence, 30 minutes for the second of the day, right up to losing the plane until server reset.  This is a team game and it is nothing but selfish to quit battles early.

Absolutely!

View PostInVictuS_ShaDoW, on 06 January 2020 - 03:35 PM, said:

Regular leaving the battle should be punished. No matter what the motives. 

You have my vote!

View Postprawiejakzywiec666, on 06 January 2020 - 04:34 PM, said:

If you quit just because you are scared of specced planes on the opposing side - you are just shooting your own teammates in the back. And YES - THAT BEHAVIOUR SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

THIS!

 

Mark these gameleavers with a different colour, like it should be for Teamdamage... Give them a time penality whatever.

I have had battles where i shot down the same enemy 2 times, and checked the team list during battle and i noticed he left that battle - more than unfair to your own Team.

 

As long as there is no punishment for this behaviour, this "I just wanna have fun" dudes destroy the fun of others!

 


Edited by 0berhessen, 07 January 2020 - 07:26 AM.

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prawiejakzywiec666 #44 Posted 07 January 2020 - 07:13 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 06 January 2020 - 10:45 PM, said:

(...)

Prawie, I just do not believe that you can kill them with a light fighter (is that what you were saying ?) ; these things start hitting you from 1.5 km away, before you can even aim. 

Just for the heck of it I just played all battles to the end ; 9 utter defeats (only 1 had a fighting chance) and 2 victories. Horrible, no fun at all.

 

 

 

Dear Colleague,

if you fly light fighter - fly it the right way. You are not supposed to counter the bombers on X tier with Mig-15 bis (it is other players job). You should try to use the advantage you have with certain type of plane and YES you can attack the bomber with light fighter but please be aware of the situation. Attack the bomber from below or the side/front and let him taste the lead but then do not expose yourself to the rear gunner. Think and calculate. You will not kill the bomber for sure but if you hit it good you will inflict critical damage and the bomber will loose 1/3-1/2 of HP. Is it good enough? Yes it is. Your friend or bot on heavy fighter or multirole like Hunter can finish him off without any problem.

I can see everyday that our human heavy fighters expose themselves to light fighters because they are flying way below 1500m. XP-90 or HG III are very vulnerable when the pilots are countering GAAs on low altitude being unaware of nearby light fighters. Some good tips for light fighters you mentioned:

- help your flymates and gain some cap points on sectors you can easily shoot some planes (garrisons, command centres or missiles),

- direct your bots on important targets (including players),

- try not to be killed over a sector because you are helping your opponents to cap it,

- cap the mid airfield - it may help your team bombers/gaa's to spawn nearby the red sector.

This is in general what you should do with your light fighter. It is a team game. Even a very good and experienced player cannot win every single game but you should try. Players like SPIDER, Press or Mitragyn push it to the limit every single battle even if they are low tiered.

You also have to be aware that on 8-10 tier the possibility of meeting very good and tactical team is higher than on tiers 4 or 5.

Try to learn sth even if you are not winning the match. 

See you in the skies!


chikken


GonerNL #45 Posted 07 January 2020 - 08:10 AM

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Let's just agree we disagree about what this game is about.

I'll add just one thing about this and then as far as I'm concerned the "discussion" is over.

 

To start with, to call this a TEAM-game and compare it to real-life team-games is ludicrous IMHO. I've played team-games all my life and I don't see any likeness to this. The players in my teams knew/know each other well and we all know our specific place/duty in the team. We communicate when necessary to adapt to the opponent or whatever needs communicating. Afterwards we have a beer (with the opponent !) and talk. If you could play this game as a clan, there would be something remotely similar.

Here a bunch of bots and players in different types of planes are thrown together by pure chance (called MM). The bots do not communicate (unless you call 'hail the robot overlords' and 'go clockwise' communicating). The few that know what they're supposed to do are called off by players asking for support. 90% of the human players do not communicate at all and/or are busy with missions of their own that conflict with the mission at hand ; winning the battle. The other 10% just blame the team for things not going their way.

Btw that's something I never, ever do ; blame the team. I only blame matchmaking ...

 

 

 



praashek #46 Posted 07 January 2020 - 04:45 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 06 January 2020 - 11:45 PM, said:

 

Yes, even after I admitted that yes, I'm selfish !! I play this game for myself, not for you.

 

 

 

So why dont you just play some singleplayer games? :]



nitemare_gary #47 Posted 14 January 2020 - 04:14 PM

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Well, as this event draws to a close on Thursday, I wanted to say this now before I forget to. This has been, for me, the best event for a long time. I have a shiny new T5 plane, some new paint jobs, 100 more tokens and much more. I want to say "You should do things like this more often", but then if it did, it wouldn't feel like such a treat. So thank you WG, and here's to a good 2019 and a hopefully fantastic 2020.

 

And to all the players who have provided excellent opposition and team mates, forum members and others, may all your battles be victorious and all your unique supplies be filled with gold and planes.:)   (But for the rubbish ones, I hope you get coal in your stocking next year.:angry:)


Edited by nitemare_gary, 14 January 2020 - 04:14 PM.


Frateras #48 Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:07 AM

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The first game today I was shot when the bad weather came I was sure to loose but someone turned it and made a victory with 5 points in advantage from with superiority. Never surrender,

some victories more can be done,

some battles more can be won. 

when brave men fight it to the end

and bold pilots the battle attend.  

:honoring:


Edited by Frateras, 15 January 2020 - 01:30 AM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #49 Posted 15 January 2020 - 10:32 AM

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Gorzki #50 Posted 15 January 2020 - 11:57 AM

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View PostSpartan_93, on 02 January 2020 - 06:51 PM, said:

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Well, Winter Trials (1&2) is a really great event. Thx.

 

the number of players taking part compared to last year doesn't show this (max players with 20 battles in a weak 7.3k vs 6.2, max number of players with 100 battles in a month 4.9k vs 4.2k)

 

View Postraketak_, on 03 January 2020 - 09:55 AM, said:

WOT community dont expect end of game. For this has bigger expectation for rewards that WOWP :)

Take this as joke, not prediction for new year.

 

summer 2018 and summer 2019 were pretty similar with attendance (summer is lowest in the year) with a floor around 3.3k/4.5k (100 battles per month/20 battles per week) in 2018 and 3.1/4.1 in 2019 but there are lower spikes during the events this year.
This year winter trials feel like just another typical event and make me wonder if there was no money to create something more festive or devs just don't care anymore.

 

View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 04 January 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

Where the teams are largely bots the win condition is an aggravation.  However, if we ever reach the situation where games are largely populated with human players the win condition will be needed to stop players playing "badly" because they are pursuing a mission rather than the victory.

 

That said, missions shouldn't be incompatible with good play, but some are.

 

that is always the problem with missions - if there is no win condition, people just pursue stupid stuff for their mission not caring for victory and the team.
if there is a win requirement, people quit matches that are unlikely to be possible to win

 

View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 06 January 2020 - 07:37 AM, said:

 

I think people who quit battles early should lose that particular aircraft for a period of time, perhaps 15 minutes for the first offence, 30 minutes for the second of the day, right up to losing the plane until server reset.  This is a team game and it is nothing but selfish to quit battles early.

 

That said, the match making can be frustrating.  It takes no heed of specialisation and can stack 6 specialised aircraft against none, or worse, can stack all the human bomber and GAA players on one team.  Whilst I disagree with quitting even in these circumstances I can understand why less patient players might.

 

View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 07 January 2020 - 06:11 AM, said:

If you're going to quit, just don't play.

 


Let's start with disclaimer - I am not an advocate for leaving battles so any attack on me assuming I am quitter are misguided, I usually stay in battle even if I know it is more profitable for me to quit. But to solve the issue, it is necessary to understand the cause without prejudice and then work to remove the cause.

I've seen this discussion many times and I am always amazed how lofty and exalted people get.
Using moral arguments that a player should sacrifice the way how he likes to play for the benefit of others is just shifting the burden of proper game design to the players.
The only exemption is spiteful and premeditated ruining the game for other people - that should be punished and removed from the game, but it is the only behavior that should be treated as an offence. 
Wowp is not a team game, it is a solo game were people are randomly assigned for 2 teams just for this battle, but victory for the team means nothing for you unless you need it personally.
Also as a MMO game with no endgame, there is no defined way to gauge your success in it - for some people it will be collecting all the planes, for others it will be highest win ratio possible, for another maximum XP or as many tokens as you can get.

There is no point using "selfish" as an insult, the game should be playable for selfish reason, not because people agree to have fun sometimes and sacrifice other times. Basically maximizing your personal reward should make game better for everyone.

"If you're going to quit just don't play" completely misses the point. When player hits the "Battle" button he gambles with a slot machine, using his time to receive a battle. If the battle is good, he will play it, if battle is below expectations - will not allow to fulfill the goals like victory/exp/missions - he has to make a decision either to continue the battle  spending his time at the fun level below acceptable threshold or quit early hoping that the slot machine will give him better combination next time. 

 

When:
- gameplay itself in a losing battle becomes less fun
- additional goals like missions are less available in lost battle 
- players start value their time more
the reward/time ratio gets into the zone where it is still ok on average so player has a reason to play but it is below the acceptable threshold on bad MM battle making quitting the game a way to increase your personal reward over time.

You may try penalising such behavior, but it will be curing the symptom instead of desease by reducing the reward in bad MM game to the point average fun falls below the threshold it is worth playing battle at all.
I can't think of any penalty that would influence my evaluation of is the quitting profitable. Blocking my plane? I have 70 of them. Taking away credits? I have 180 millions and need to buy only 2 tier X planes anymore. Taking gold/free xp/tokens away from my account for quitting early? I will go make myself a sandwich while battle goes badly or don't play at all.

 

Yes, I agree there are battles that should be lost but are miraculously won. And that often the signs to judge the expected outcome of the battle (player and bot tiers, planes, specialists, flights and player names) are misleading and overcoming bad MM is very satisfying - but it all comes down to the statistics in the long run, you sometimes make mistake in predictions but adjusting to your predictions is more effective than not predicting at all.

Instead of penalising the players for quitting, game design should focus on improving MM (so losses are harder to predict/there is bigger chance to overturn the outcome) and creating good balance between the goals that require victory in battle (so it does not become meaningless) and those you can achieve even in the lost battle.
 


Remove the flights. No point giving statpadders another tool to grief other people.


RoyalFlyingCorps #51 Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:28 PM

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View PostGorzki, on 15 January 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

Wowp is not a team game...

 

Incorrect, invalidating everything you said.



Frateras #52 Posted 15 January 2020 - 11:48 PM

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There is just one aspect you did not mention. You are rated for your winrate. And it will be worse than it could be when you leave a game before it's lost.

Frateras #53 Posted 15 January 2020 - 11:49 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 15 January 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

If you can whistle do that, because certainly you can’t write poetry! :)

Yes I should write my poems in in German :hiding:



0berhessen #54 Posted 16 January 2020 - 06:42 AM

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View PostGorzki, on 15 January 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

Wowp is not a team game, it is a solo game were people are randomly assigned for 2 teams just for this battle, but victory for the team means nothing for you unless you need it personally.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong.

Wowp is a team game, where people are randomly put together in teams and they should try and give their best to win.

Why? Easy, there is no other way to gain materials, which you need to improve and calibrate your equipment to make your airplane better.

Thats at least the reason why i like a victory better than a defeat.

If i would do it for my winrate only, i would prefer to fly Tier 1+2 flight with I-5 and AO-192 in the middle of the night.

View PostGorzki, on 15 January 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

that is always the problem with missions - if there is no win condition, people just pursue stupid stuff for their mission not caring for victory and the team.
if there is a win requirement, people quit matches that are unlikely to be possible to win

I agree with you at this point, the win-condition should be removed for daily missions

View PostGorzki, on 15 January 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

You may try penalising such behavior, but it will be curing the symptom instead of desease by reducing the reward in bad MM game to the point average fun falls below the threshold it is worth playing battle at all.
I can't think of any penalty that would influence my evaluation of is the quitting profitable. Blocking my plane? I have 70 of them. Taking away credits? I have 180 millions and need to buy only 2 tier X planes anymore. Taking gold/free xp/tokens away from my account for quitting early? I will go make myself a sandwich while battle goes badly or don't play at all.

Instead of this, i would better suggest to encourage players to stay in battle, even if it is lost.

And still try their best to get a good result.

Thats why i asked in another thread, that even the defeat team gets materials - it could be a point where even a defeat leads to a positive experience.

 

Don´t blame the MM - i would say MM makes around 50% win/loose situations - the rest is what you make out of it.

 

And if we talk about penality:

The first step could be a different colour like it is in Ships.

That means every human in your next battle will see that you broke some "rule" - i doubt that will make your virtual pilot life easier.

The next step after lets say 3 or 4 gameleaves could be a block of your account for a decent time.

Meanwhile you can make sandwiches... :B

 

 


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Gorzki #55 Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:01 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 15 January 2020 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

Incorrect, invalidating everything you said.

 

Being smug will not make you right but it will prevent you from learning.
There are more than 1 definition of team game and the same game may be treated as team game sometimes and solo game the other time, or as a team game for some part of playerbase and solo game for other part.

As with every MMO different players in WoWp have different drives


For me definition is simple - team game is where the success of your team is more important than your personal result. So if you play only for winrate or if the mission is only get X wins - then WoWp is getting close to team game
The solo game is when there is no team OR you don't care for the team at all.
The solo game with team elements is what wowp is for most people and because different people have different goals - only some of them (or some of the time) will treat wowp as team game.

That's the main issue here, if you want everyone to play the game for exactly the same reasons you play it, the game will get boring for most of them pretty soon. 

 

 

View PostFrateras, on 15 January 2020 - 11:48 PM, said:

There is just one aspect you did not mention. You are rated for your winrate. And it will be worse than it could be when you leave a game before it's lost.

 

That would be valid if every one cared for their winrate.

You are also rated by the number of battles average experience and average damage. 

So what?

 

View Post0berhessen, on 16 January 2020 - 06:42 AM, said:

(1)

Sorry, but this is completely wrong.

Wowp is a team game, where people are randomly put together in teams and they should try and give their best to win.

Why? Easy, there is no other way to gain materials, which you need to improve and calibrate your equipment to make your airplane better.

Thats at least the reason why i like a victory better than a defeat.

 

(2)

I agree with you at this point, the win-condition should be removed for daily missions

Instead of this, i would better suggest to encourage players to stay in battle, even if it is lost.

And still try their best to get a good result.

Thats why i asked in another thread, that even the defeat team gets materials - it could be a point where even a defeat leads to a positive experience.

 

(3)
Don´t blame the MM - i would say MM makes around 50% win/loose situations - the rest is what you make out of it.

 

(4)

And if we talk about penality:

The first step could be a different colour like it is in Ships.

That means every human in your next battle will see that you broke some "rule" - i doubt that will make your virtual pilot life easier.

The next step after lets say 3 or 4 gameleaves could be a block of your account for a decent time.

Meanwhile you can make sandwiches... :B

 

 

(1)
You just describe a case that fits perfectly "unless you personally need victory". Not everyone needs victory every time they play

You don't profit from the success of people in your team, it just happens that victory gives a reward for everyone, but sacrificing yourself for the team is rarely worth it.

If player will have a mission that requires him to do something and no win condition, the battle for him is not a team game, he just goes to do something specific while some planes shoot at him and some don't. Winning or losing is irrelevant.

(2)
do you see the issue here? if you remove the win condition from missions and materials, you have less reason to care for victory, if you do keep, it makes no sense to play the battle you can't win or you gave minimal chances to win, it is more rewarding to leave and play another battle with another team

You get close to my point - it is about how rewards are distributed, if they encourage team play or not. Some rewards encourage teamplay, some don't, most encourage team play or selfish play

For example, a win condition encourages you to try and win a battle, unless by quitting the current battle and starting a new one you increase your expected number of victories per hour. So some battles it will be more effective to try and fight and other battles it will be more worth it to quit and try your luck in another battle. The only thing that win condition encourages is YOUR win ratio, not team win ratio.

 

(3) 

I just used MM as a shortcut for everything that happens outside your control. There are battles where other factors completely decide and your input is unimportant.

 

(4)

You were so close to getting the right answer - finding a way to encourage people to stay in battle even when the odds of reaching their personal goals in this battle looks bad.

I cannot imagine any way to penalise player that will work as intended without causing players to play badly on purpose or quitting the game completely or being manageable (you can analyse every report for inaction/bot but that is too costly).

In your example I can just go afk or start getting killed on purpose inside caps to finish battle quicker or just stop playing at all.

 

 


Remove the flights. No point giving statpadders another tool to grief other people.


zen_monk_ #56 Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:19 PM

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The distribution of materials and points after the battle according to your performance, not per "team" victory would very much eliminate defetism and exiting battles (not even mentioning being absolutely fair).

 

You'd get the motivation to give your best regardless of a superior enemy team. And if that's not a contributing factor for more success of your team, I don't know what is.

 

It would be a win-win solution.


Edited by zen_monk_, 16 January 2020 - 10:21 PM.

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RoyalFlyingCorps #57 Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:21 AM

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View PostGorzki, on 16 January 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

Being smug will not make you right but it will prevent you from learning.

 

As you are unable to recognise the simple fact that WoWP is a team game, an error made in pursuit of justifying your foolish and selfish opinions, the learning that needs to be done here is yours.

 

As an aside, it is possible to be wrong and entertaining.  Though I feel quite sure you are mightily impressed - to the point of smugness, since you're projecting your own faults here - with your long posts, you are dull as well as wrong.



0berhessen #58 Posted 17 January 2020 - 07:20 AM

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View PostGorzki, on 16 January 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

(1)
You just describe a case that fits perfectly "unless you personally need victory". Not everyone needs victory every time they play

You don't profit from the success of people in your team, it just happens that victory gives a reward for everyone, but sacrificing yourself for the team is rarely worth it.

If player will have a mission that requires him to do something and no win condition, the battle for him is not a team game, he just goes to do something specific while some planes shoot at him and some don't. Winning or losing is irrelevant.

"Not everyone needs victory every time they play" - Thats the truth as ones victory must be the others defeat. Because of that it is simply impossible!

You profit from the success of people in your team, as long as you contribute yourself. The system as it works right now does not pay every human player of the winner team materials, which means you can be in the winner team and with a bad position in the team you´ll get nothing.

It might be you sacrifice yourself for your team, and the opponent team is winning, just because they manage to conquer and defend the more important sectors, the battle ends, you are topscore, but your team looses.

What i ask for is a number of materials for the Topscore player of the Looser team.

By this, from my understanding, every pilot is encouraged to try his best beeing the Topscore. Game leavers will never be Topscore!

Missions from my experience (if we talk about daily missions) are done automaticly - just by playing the game.

To tell you the truth, the only reason i look for daily missions is: If there is a "win only condition" i skip them, if there is "destroy" or even worse "help destroy ground targets" i skip them. And i do not do dailys in one day, sometimes i need a week, sometimes a month...

I can only speak for myself in this case.

View PostGorzki, on 16 January 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

(2)
...it is more rewarding to leave and play another battle with another team...unless by quitting the current battle and starting a new one you increase your expected number of victories per hour...

This dear Gorzki is the strangest theory i have ever heard of...

View PostGorzki, on 16 January 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

(3) 

I just used MM as a shortcut for everything that happens outside your control. There are battles where other factors completely decide and your input is unimportant.

Rarely, really rarely. Your input is always important on the battle result.

View PostGorzki, on 16 January 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

(4)

You were so close to getting the right answer - finding a way to encourage people to stay in battle even when the odds of reaching their personal goals in this battle looks bad.

I cannot imagine any way to penalise player that will work as intended without causing players to play badly on purpose or quitting the game completely or being manageable (you can analyse every report for inaction/bot but that is too costly).

In your example I can just go afk or start getting killed on purpose inside caps to finish battle quicker or just stop playing at all.

Why should a penality cause players to play bad? The way i see it is a penality shows a player that he has done something terribly wrong.

There are indeed a few players people in game that sabotage the own team with inactivity and really bad performance, like you described it (intentionally die in an own sector)

There is another Thread with a discussion about one of them, where obviously the WG team intervented.

 

Finally thats not the main point.

 

See, the community is rising, but still very small. A continous bad behaviour, which leaving a battle definately is, will sooner or later be known in the community.

Some of them crossed my way in several battles, they often show the same pattern of behaviour:

The battle starts, they ping the Map like crazy and if no one reacts to the those "strategic commands" and they die alone in the red furball over the airfield, you can be sure their name is given a squiggle if you check the team list next time.

 

And finally i can tell you the truth - i have left battles too - it was the battles where the enemy team leads with 550 of 600 points holds almost all sectors while my own team has not even 100 and the squall line comes in 30 seconds.


Edited by 0berhessen, 17 January 2020 - 07:21 AM.

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FlyingDutchman69 #59 Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:27 AM

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    12-26-2016

View PostGonerNL, on 07 January 2020 - 08:10 AM, said:

Let's just agree we disagree about what this game is about.

I'll add just one thing about this and then as far as I'm concerned the "discussion" is over.

. I only blame matchmaking. 

 

 

 

I think thats easier then to blaim your own incompetence and expectations….. (to go into a battle with a stock plane and 90% pilot is a recipe for disaster ;)


Edited by FlyingDutchman69, 17 January 2020 - 09:30 AM.


zen_monk_ #60 Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:53 AM

    First Lieutenant

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View PostFlyingDutchman69, on 17 January 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

I think thats easier then to blaim your own incompetence and expectations….. (to go into a battle with a stock plane and 90% pilot is a recipe for disaster ;)

 

There are moments when I go into battle like this. Sometimes it has to be done.

In games like that I'm ready for humiliation, have no complaints whatsoever.


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