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Matchmaking gone bezerk.


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houghtonbee #121 Posted 22 July 2020 - 09:20 AM

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View Post0berhessen, on 22 July 2020 - 07:06 AM, said:

Sorry, but even more true in high tiers!

As it takes more effort and time to specialize a plane the higher you get.

 

Unless you token skip it.......



0berhessen #122 Posted 22 July 2020 - 10:15 AM

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View Posthoughtonbee, on 22 July 2020 - 09:20 AM, said:

 

Unless you token skip it.......


...of course, there you have your Specialist.

But where to get those materials if you are an average - or even worse - a bad pilot?

Since Material only drops for the winners.

Still Specialist tells nothing about the player skills and above all the level of equipment you are able to use in the plane...

To be honest i have one only plane where i Token skipped to specialist, which is the Tier10 German Bomber.

Where i skipped mainly because of the number of rear gunner kills to get there.

The rest of my specced planes are all worked through

I would say only a lazy lad skips it with token


Edited by 0berhessen, 22 July 2020 - 10:47 AM.

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0berhessen #123 Posted 22 July 2020 - 10:27 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 22 July 2020 - 07:51 AM, said:

 

In your opinion ... mine is different.

A halfway decent pilot in a well-specced plane will out-perform my unspecced pilot/plane. 

But that is just my experience ; you überpilots are so good that it doesn't seem to make any difference. So why specialize at all ?  :unsure:

Neither am I an überpilot - lol

Why specialize you ask?

Its still Stone/Scissors/Paper, thus its like making stone a bit heavier, scissors a bit sharper and paper a bit smoother.

A half way pilot in a well specced plane makes mistakes, he will possibly out perform your unspecced plane, but not in all cases!

And for the cases where scissor meets scissor i want to have the sharper one...:izmena:


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GonerNL #124 Posted 22 July 2020 - 11:49 AM

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View Post0berhessen, on 22 July 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:

Why specialize you ask?

 

That was a rhetorical question ... I'm not the one claiming that speccing doesn't mean a thing.

I also think that in a lot of cases, the specced plane gives you an edge over the unspecced plane. Most pilots are halfway decent like me, so I have more of a chance against them ... good pilot in specced plane and I'm a goner.

 



Aimless #125 Posted 22 July 2020 - 04:38 PM

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zen_monk_ #126 Posted 22 July 2020 - 06:07 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 22 July 2020 - 12:49 PM, said:

 

 I'm not the one claiming that speccing doesn't mean a thing.

 

 

 

No one claimed so.

 

My sentence was "Speccing doesn't mean a thing compared to the skill of the player".

 

 Don't know how this is a complicated thought, but ok, I'll simplify: "A good player in a non specced plane will always kick a$$ of a bad player in a fully specced one."

 

 

View PostGonerNL, on 22 July 2020 - 12:49 PM, said:

 

 

I also think that in a lot of cases, the specced plane gives you an edge over the unspecced plane.

 

Not in a lot of cases but in all of them.

 

Only the statement from above can be expanded to tactical trickery when it's appropriate so it only looks like one doesn't care for speccing. On the contrary, cares so much that one knows when maybe it's wiser to fly without.


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BillyGoat_Gruff #127 Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:21 PM

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Does appalling matchmaking and zero effort to improve it probably reflects a games publisher in decline?


This Billygoat eats trolls

RoyalFlyingCorps #128 Posted 28 July 2020 - 09:30 AM

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You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Ziptop #129 Posted 29 July 2020 - 05:58 PM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 22 July 2020 - 07:07 PM, said:

 

My sentence was "Speccing doesn't mean a thing compared to the skill of the player".

 

 Don't know how this is a complicated thought, but ok, I'll simplify: "A good player in a non specced plane will always kick a$$ of a bad player in a fully specced one."

 

 

Yes, this is true, for good players. 

But, it might take time, it might tie you both up in a longer dogfight than either of you really have time for....

 

meanwhile the other two (or more) experienced players in specialized aircraft on the red team are dominating the battle space, flipping sectors and otherwise setting up yet another entirely predictable win for the team with the greatest advantage and a specialized aircraft does give an advantage.

 

The problem isn't specialized aircraft themselves. Its the fact that the matchmaker frequently puts them all on the same team thus amplifying that advantage and skewing the result.



Spuggy #130 Posted 30 July 2020 - 09:56 AM

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View PostZiptop, on 29 July 2020 - 05:58 PM, said:

 

Yes, this is true, for good players. 

But, it might take time, it might tie you both up in a longer dogfight than either of you really have time for....

 

meanwhile the other two (or more) experienced players in specialized aircraft on the red team are dominating the battle space, flipping sectors and otherwise setting up yet another entirely predictable win for the team with the greatest advantage and a specialized aircraft does give an advantage.

 

The problem isn't specialized aircraft themselves. Its the fact that the matchmaker frequently puts them all on the same team thus amplifying that advantage and skewing the result.

 

 

The thing is though, a specialised plane with "Improved Equipment" fitted is not much better than an "Ultimate Equipment" fitted plane with the equipment specs fully calibrated and bonuses properly tuned to the aircraft by reassembling .

 

How would the MM differentiate between the two specc'd planes?

 

Should we have levels of specialisation where the symbol representing the specc'd plane is different depending on the equipment fitted? Perhaps colour coded or a marker?


Edited by Spuggy, 30 July 2020 - 09:57 AM.


apartclassic #131 Posted 30 July 2020 - 10:18 AM

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View PostSpuggy, on 30 July 2020 - 09:56 AM, said:

 

 

The thing is though, a specialised plane with "Improved Equipment" fitted is not much better than an "Ultimate Equipment" fitted plane with the equipment specs fully calibrated and bonuses properly tuned to the aircraft by reassembling .

 

How would the MM differentiate between the two specc'd planes?

 

Should we have levels of specialisation where the symbol representing the specc'd plane is different depending on the equipment fitted? Perhaps colour coded or a marker?

 

Nope. In fact, there's no point in trying to balance the level of speccing in MM. If you remember, there was an option to compare planes on the pre-battle screen, hovering mouse over names gave you a rough comparison. It was possible to see whose plane is stock and which ones are Elited. There was a reason this feature was removed prior to speccing, and I don't think it's feasible without a lot of increased server/client traffic. Yes, it's doable, e.g. by caching the plane data for each player, and storing the info server-wise for MM to take into account - technically possible, but completely impractical.

 

The issue most often presented in this thread is not about matching plane per plane, with all the complex data involved. The issue is that MM does not see specialization at all, and quite often puts all specialized planes in one team, while giving the other side zero specialized planes; it may create a skewed battle, if we agree specced planes may indicate more experienced players. We are asking to implement a change for MM, resulting in numerical balance of specced planes (also, classes - as e.g. GAA does not equal a bomber) per side. Attempts at making it a 'qualitative' balance for MM are most probably doomed (and how do you propose to balance players in MM?).


Edited by apartclassic, 30 July 2020 - 10:18 AM.

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Spuggy #132 Posted 30 July 2020 - 12:27 PM

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View Postapartclassic, on 30 July 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

 

Nope. In fact, there's no point in trying to balance the level of speccing in MM. If you remember, there was an option to compare planes on the pre-battle screen, hovering mouse over names gave you a rough comparison. It was possible to see whose plane is stock and which ones are Elited. There was a reason this feature was removed prior to speccing, and I don't think it's feasible without a lot of increased server/client traffic. Yes, it's doable, e.g. by caching the plane data for each player, and storing the info server-wise for MM to take into account - technically possible, but completely impractical.

 

The issue most often presented in this thread is not about matching plane per plane, with all the complex data involved. The issue is that MM does not see specialization at all, and quite often puts all specialized planes in one team, while giving the other side zero specialized planes; it may create a skewed battle, if we agree specced planes may indicate more experienced players. We are asking to implement a change for MM, resulting in numerical balance of specced planes (also, classes - as e.g. GAA does not equal a bomber) per side. Attempts at making it a 'qualitative' balance for MM are most probably doomed (and how do you propose to balance players in MM?).

 

 

If this was considered in MM the only way to resolve this easily (and keep waiting times low) is to allow bots to fly specc'ed planes with veteran AI. Or the AI could be levelled (Good / Great/ Ace / Godlike) to create a little more "randomness" than pure mirror matching. 

 

Veteran players could also submit potential "Loadouts" with corresponding specialized fits. These would then be used by the bots as an opposite to the specc'd player but not necessarily a "mirror".


Edited by Spuggy, 30 July 2020 - 12:27 PM.


zen_monk_ #133 Posted 30 July 2020 - 12:30 PM

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No please, no Godlike bots! They snipe & rocketeer well enough as they are, thank you very much!

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apartclassic #134 Posted 30 July 2020 - 12:53 PM

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View PostSpuggy, on 30 July 2020 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

 

If this was considered in MM the only way to resolve this easily (and keep waiting times low) is to allow bots to fly specc'ed planes with veteran AI. Or the AI could be levelled (Good / Great/ Ace / Godlike) to create a little more "randomness" than pure mirror matching. 

 

Veteran players could also submit potential "Loadouts" with corresponding specialized fits. These would then be used by the bots as an opposite to the specc'd player but not necessarily a "mirror".

 

Again, nope. Initially the bots were varrying in 'skill' - there were three levels of that, and this was randomly (as far as I remember) attributed to bots within a battle. It created more problems than it solved though, because frequently led to bot domination within a battle (you can be a great A6M pilot, but if you have a 'Godlike' bot in a HF against you, there's not much you can do). This led to the more simplified and 'fair' system of bot skills that we have now. From what I see, bots do differ in loadout - supposedly all bots are flying stock configurations, however I'm led to believe it's no longer the case (and possibly, the higher the 'skill' level of a bot, the higher the chance of it flying Elite config); I don't remember this being officially confirmed though, and it's my impression from watching battles and replays. Further diversification of bots would again lead to outcry about imbalanced battles and rigged game, and there would be a lot of anger and demands for 'fixing' the system.

 

Let me stress it again - the easiest, and least prone to further complications, thing to do with MM is just coding in the parity of specialized planes per team. No, it won't fix 'everything' and won't magically improve everyone's chances, but should level the field. If you think of bots flying specced planes, do take into consideration the multitude of combinations of equipment and the corresponding increase of complexity of server/client exchange. Also, do you really want Potap in his Yak9 to snipe you better, with aiming mods? Do you want bot bombers to get shortened reload times? Do you want bots - that are already abusing the mechanics - to get specialized boost and engine mods, so that they can climb even higher and higher without even engaging targets? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Your suggestions are not wrong per se, they just don't exactly fit in the current state of the game (not to mention required human resources to make it happen).

 

To put it simply - it's not bots that are the issue we are complaining about, it's the MM and the way it composes teams, with specialization being irrelevant for the script.


Edited by apartclassic, 30 July 2020 - 12:58 PM.

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GonerNL #135 Posted 30 July 2020 - 12:53 PM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 30 July 2020 - 01:30 PM, said:

They snipe & rocketeer well enough as they are,

 

And your team bots will just steal your kills.

Is it just me or does it get worse ?? Every 2nd 'kill' is stolen just before I finish it off ...

 

View Postapartclassic, on 30 July 2020 - 01:53 PM, said:

supposedly all bots are flying stock configurations, 

 

I don't believe that ... how do they set you on fire so often with standard sight and ammo ?

 


Edited by GonerNL, 30 July 2020 - 12:57 PM.


Spuggy #136 Posted 30 July 2020 - 01:55 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 30 July 2020 - 12:53 PM, said:

 

And your team bots will just steal your kills.

Is it just me or does it get worse ?? Every 2nd 'kill' is stolen just before I finish it off ...

 

 

 

Kill stealing? What is this "Kill Stealing" you are talking of and what kind of a person might do such a dishonourable action? :hiding:


Edited by Spuggy, 30 July 2020 - 01:58 PM.


Ziptop #137 Posted 30 July 2020 - 08:14 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 30 July 2020 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

And your team bots will just steal your kills.

Is it just me or does it get worse ?? Every 2nd 'kill' is stolen just before I finish it off ...

 

 

I don't believe that ... how do they set you on fire so often with standard sight and ammo ?

 

A quick aside. - Not to derail the thread. 

I've noticed that if you request support (and actually get it from a useful aircraft) that bot kill steals increase. This is simply because you now have an allied aircraft following you everywhere like a puppy with a machinegun.

 

As for bot skill levels. They may all be the same base level but it does seem like they have a pool of behaviour scripts with different behaviours which can lead to them looking like they have higher skill level. (a cautious behaviour script may cause the bot to run while an aggressive behaviour script may instruct the bot to target you more aggressively for example)

 

I'm guessing there, but I've modded and tinkered with enough games in my lifetime to have an idea of how some of these things can work. I've seen plenty of instances within the same game where even air defense aircraft of the same type might have seemingly slightly different combat styles, some running in a straight line, others maneuvering really hard, I've also noticed instances where ADA seem to get lost. It might be because they chased something outside of the sector or similar but then they seem to get stuck flying straight for quite a while, this looks exactly like NPC's who's scripts have stopped running or which are waiting for a new script to start. 

 

 



apartclassic #138 Posted 30 July 2020 - 08:45 PM

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Right - ADA first. When they start flying in straight line (heavy ADA usually), it's exactly their script. They are scripted to be HF - zoom away, turn back at you, kill you in a head-on. Add to this the mechanics of bots flying away from you (if they detect they have a slight speed advantage) till you change direction and lose them from your focal point; they will immediately turn back at that point. An unintentional (I believe) effect of this is the multitude of people that are shot down by AA, when following and ADA in that particular line of their script; ADA is zooming away in a straight line, player follows in a straight line, AA gets time to get the accuracy buff - kaboom. I do believe it's working exactly as intended.

 

Bots do seem to have a sort of a cooldown period, between engaging scripts. If there's a bot that came to cap a sector, and the sector flips, you can clearly see the bot just clearing target list and heading off towards another sector (while the newly flipped sector is still locked). As soon as the sector is unlocked, bots will 'rescan' and re-engage. If the bot was engaged with a player plane during capping, it will still follow that script and carry on fighting; if it was engaged with another entity (GTs or ADA), the list gets cleared, bot becomes blind for a while, keeps going in a straight line.

 

Different combat styles for bots are based exactly on their class, and then modified by the plane they're in. HF bots will almost always do BnZ, MRF will climb and do diving attacks on planes, or go down to attack GAA; etc etc. The 'skill' level of bot might be governing the delay between switching scripts (as in, higher level bots do it faster, select targets faster, maneuver more proficiently etc), but the basic repertoir of behaviours seem to be exactly the same. Oh, skill level may also play part in some debuffs bots receive (e.g. accuracy). Bots seem to be always in the 'attack' mode - but this can be an 'attack sector' stuff (with the quirk I described above) or 'attack plane'. They are never idle, because I don't think anyone bothered to code down a line 'wait for [1-20 roll] seconds, then select next script'.

 

End of derailing, back to MM mishandling specialized planes :)


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Ziptop #139 Posted 07 August 2020 - 09:56 AM

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View Postapartclassic, on 30 July 2020 - 09:45 PM, said:

Right - ADA first. When they start flying in straight line (heavy ADA usually), it's exactly their script. They are scripted to be HF - zoom away, turn back at you, kill you in a head-on. Add to this the mechanics of bots flying away from you (if they detect they have a slight speed advantage) till you change direction and lose them from your focal point; they will immediately turn back at that point. An unintentional (I believe) effect of this is the multitude of people that are shot down by AA, when following and ADA in that particular line of their script; ADA is zooming away in a straight line, player follows in a straight line, AA gets time to get the accuracy buff - kaboom. I do believe it's working exactly as intended.

 

Bots do seem to have a sort of a cooldown period, between engaging scripts. If there's a bot that came to cap a sector, and the sector flips, you can clearly see the bot just clearing target list and heading off towards another sector (while the newly flipped sector is still locked). As soon as the sector is unlocked, bots will 'rescan' and re-engage. If the bot was engaged with a player plane during capping, it will still follow that script and carry on fighting; if it was engaged with another entity (GTs or ADA), the list gets cleared, bot becomes blind for a while, keeps going in a straight line.

 

Different combat styles for bots are based exactly on their class, and then modified by the plane they're in. HF bots will almost always do BnZ, MRF will climb and do diving attacks on planes, or go down to attack GAA; etc etc. The 'skill' level of bot might be governing the delay between switching scripts (as in, higher level bots do it faster, select targets faster, maneuver more proficiently etc), but the basic repertoir of behaviours seem to be exactly the same. Oh, skill level may also play part in some debuffs bots receive (e.g. accuracy). Bots seem to be always in the 'attack' mode - but this can be an 'attack sector' stuff (with the quirk I described above) or 'attack plane'. They are never idle, because I don't think anyone bothered to code down a line 'wait for [1-20 roll] seconds, then select next script'.

 

End of derailing, back to MM mishandling specialized planes :)

 

I'm aware of that behaviour and how it should work. 

What I am trying to describe is something else. Something that looks much more like an NPC gone stupid because it's script has stopped running.  - Not so much a heavy ADA running on purpose or a Light running because it thinks it has a speed advantage and more like bots simply on a dumb cruise, stuck on one course regardless of what is going on around them. The sort of thing that makes to double take and think "what is that bot doing? The first time I noticed it I think it was a light ADA just flying on a straight course across its sector and out the other side, it wasn't chasing anything or being chased. It was just on a dumb cruise....and it kept going. 



Mournfull #140 Posted 07 August 2020 - 11:27 AM

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An IL-8 bot was dog-fighting another bot which was multi-role today. 

It was higher than me when I shot it down and I was at 1700.

 

I have also seen PE-2 bombers chasing and shooting down other bombers recently.

 

I was lucky with this one when a Tempest was chasing me but didn't fire once even though it was 400-600  behind me.

I was trying to get away from a human player in my heavy fighter which I succeeded in only because the bot didn't shoot me. 

 

So yeah there is some weird AI behavior  at the moment!






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