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Matchmaking gone bezerk.


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Ato_sato #161 Posted 16 September 2020 - 06:55 PM

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There was a discussion in a Russian forum or the game needed percussion planes. They really did little good. The bombers were more efficient.

Aimless #162 Posted 18 September 2020 - 12:15 PM

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What the heck is a percussion plane supposed to be?  :amazed:

Ato_sato #163 Posted 18 September 2020 - 06:39 PM

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Attack Aircraft.Translator translates errors.



RoyalFlyingCorps #164 Posted 20 September 2020 - 06:34 AM

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And there was I thinking it was having your toms-toms all lined up to exactly the same height...

Ziptop #165 Posted 26 September 2020 - 03:47 PM

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Ran a little personal experiment across multiple accounts this week and....

 

Two of those accounts got pretty easy rides. Reasonable matchmaking, specialized aircraft not taking the p1ss and all being on the same team etc. I won a fair amount of the battles, or at least enough of the battles that the experience didn't feel like a complete drag.

 

The other account? It got a complete and utter kicking. Each and every battle an unwinnable sh1tfest of one sided matchmaking that presented completely predictable results. 

 

This I guess must be the fabled "Karma" element of the matchmaker in action. 



GonerNL #166 Posted 26 September 2020 - 08:09 PM

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Yeah, you'd almost start to believe in Karma ... on the EU server the matchmaking is just atrocious, as usual, but the crapis at least evenly distributed.

 

But on the CIS server it's unbelievable ; out of every 10 battles I get 9 where the enemy team has more flights, more specialists (and I mean like 5 vs 1, or 4 vs 0) , higher tier human bombers vs lower tier bots. Just bad luck ?


Edited by GonerNL, 26 September 2020 - 08:10 PM.


Ziptop #167 Posted 26 September 2020 - 10:02 PM

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According to what I read about the matchmaker there is a "karma" system which basically serves up easier to win games to balance the rubbish out. 

 

Clearly it also works to serve up utterly unwinnable games if it feels you have had too much of an easy ride. 

 

I'm guessing of the 3 accounts used for this experiment that 2 were on a "give this guy a break" cycle and the other one was due a proper kicking. 

 

(Same aircraft, same pilot skill, same human pilot, at same time of day for same amount of battles on each account 2 of them in same server.) 

 

However. I had such a hard time actually staying connected this evening that the experiment is over. The servers crapped out on me. Either that or somebody had cut the internet wires from Sweden to the rest of the world. Odd though. Everything else works. Just not World of Warplanes.



maxram68 #168 Posted 27 September 2020 - 09:45 AM

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View PostZiptop, on 26 September 2020 - 11:02 PM, said:

According to what I read about the matchmaker there is a "karma" system which basically serves up easier to win games to balance the rubbish out. 

 

Clearly it also works to serve up utterly unwinnable games if it feels you have had too much of an easy ride. 

 

...

 

Agree!

 

It typically shows as:
- Bullets will not connect and/or does way less than normal/expected damage. Even with a perfect firing solution. Server "issues" might also have an impact.
- Regardless of pilot skills, build of plane etc. you get the impression you're flying a goddamn paper plane every battle (constant crits, fires etc.).
- You often see "those" flights and/or "those" individuals on the enemy team. Your own team mainly consists of players, that makes you wonder how the hell they managed to load the game, pick a plane and finally click "Battle"...
- Doing decently, taking the right approach, and perhaps even bringing your A-game doesn't matter. At all. 
...very often and in any combination. Even beyond what can be categorised entirely as unfortunate RNG/MM or "bad luck".

 

However, it's a two-way street.
The more or less easy battles/rides (i.e. the opposite of above) will also begin to kick in at some point.

 

Fortunately, the extremely bad (or easy, for that matter) rides doesn't last forever. 
And are not that frequent - depending on point of view ofc.

 

In my opinion, the most interesting battles are those in between: battles with a decent balance, where both sides have an equal chance of winning.
At least those battles are one of the main reasons I'm still playing WoWp.

 


The big question is: can bad "karma" be countered ?
IMHO not entirely - the punishment will happen until, well, it doesn't happen anymore...

 

But a few things might help:
- Digging a hole that gets deeper will not do any good. So stop digging (take a break).
- Switch tier/class and/or pick sth. you haven't played for a long time.
- Play at "odd times" of the day w. low population, if possible.

 



RoyalFlyingCorps #169 Posted 27 September 2020 - 11:13 AM

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Whether you believe it or not, the official line from WoWP is that there is a karma system, but it is limited to preventing you getting too many bottom tier battles or top tier battles in a row.  Win rate is not a factor in the system.

 

I used to collect a large amount of statistics on every battle I played.  There was no evidence of games being balanced in the way that you mention, that is, if you're doing well you then get a series of battles with the odds stacked against you.  Since that would make the queue times long, I rather doubt there is any such karma.  You're just being unlucky when you have 29 defeats in a row (my worst streak) or lucky when you have 21 wins in a row (my best streak).


Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 27 September 2020 - 11:13 AM.


maxram68 #170 Posted 27 September 2020 - 01:11 PM

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Since you apparently dug into the actual composition of teams in relation to your own battles, and my own observations are 100% based on "feelings" throughout the years, I stand corrected.

 

It's just...can't get it out of my head...those losing streaks _seem_ to come after a medium to long streak of fairly "easy" (by own definition) wins. Again: It's a "feeling" I can't just shake off...

...since I never took the time+effort to actually _gather_ those figures like you did (respect for that btw.!).

 

 

I guess Ziptop and I are just a couple of superstitious vikings...

...anyway, I'm waiting for the next full moon in order to sacrifice a goat and a frog... you know - just for good luck and decent MM... :trollface:



Ziptop #171 Posted 27 September 2020 - 02:19 PM

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View Postmaxram68, on 27 September 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:

 

I guess Ziptop and I are just a couple of superstitious vikings...

...anyway, I'm waiting for the next full moon in order to sacrifice a goat and a frog... you know - just for good luck and decent MM... :trollface:

 

This most recent study has admittedly been an extremely small sample. However, just to be on the safe side I think I'll probably placate the gods of matchmaking with some similar pagan sacrifices. 



RoyalFlyingCorps #172 Posted 27 September 2020 - 08:20 PM

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Well, there are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics.  The pagan sacrifice can't do any harm. :)

blindfoId #173 Posted 28 September 2020 - 11:07 AM

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There indeed was a “karma” parameter years ago, it was described over here when that principles of MM were up to date. 

 

Block Quote

 We have a “karma” parameter for each aircraft in a player’s hangar that counts how many times it has recently been in battles of its tier. Since a room can include aircraft of two, or even three tiers (in rare cases), karma defines which battle tier can be used for a specific aircraft every single time. For example, if a player with a tier VII aircraft was matched into a tier VII battle several times in a row, there is a high possibility that next time they click Battle piloting that aircraft, they will be put into a tier VIII room, and vice versa.

 

However, the matchmaking system was changed, and there's no such a thing as "karma" in WOWP anymore. All principles of the current matchmaking system are described in the dedicated article. 



maxram68 #174 Posted 28 September 2020 - 02:53 PM

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Thanks for the clarification - and the links!

I might still be somewhat "influenced" by approx. 25k battles in 1.x (vs. the current 4k in 2.x).

 

But at least the explanation of how the current MM works - combined with RFCs remarks - should eliminate any conspiracy theories and deranged ideas.

...however, I'm still thinking about the potential value of those pagan sacrifices...  :D



Ato_sato #175 Posted 28 September 2020 - 07:27 PM

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Hmm, and why do bots sometimes use "Russian" tactics? All together in a herd, they conquer the base by base.My team's bots are scattered and helpless.It doesn't happen often, but it does.

GonerNL #176 Posted 28 September 2020 - 08:25 PM

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View Postmaxram68, on 28 September 2020 - 03:53 PM, said:

 I'm still thinking about the potential value of those pagan sacrifices...  :D

 

Believe me ; I'd put more confidence in pagan sacrifices than in matchmaking ... it's a joke. It sounds nice in that blog, but it just doesn't work and only manages to put 2 completely unbalanced teams in a battle most of the time.

For MM all classes are the same, so you can end up with one team having only light fighters and the other team the heavies. Or one team gets the fast human bombers and the other team the slow some bot GA (lower tier). It's a lottery ... everything in this game is random.

 

 

 



RoyalFlyingCorps #177 Posted 30 September 2020 - 09:26 AM

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One of the key things to note in the article to which Blindfold provided a link is that the match maker takes no cognisance of specialisation.  Without a doubt, that is a problem when most or all of the specialised aircraft are stacked in one team.

 

We tend to remember the hopeless cases rather than the matches where the match making was benign or favourable and we are apt to ascribe agency to 'karma', or whatever, because most of us find it difficult to believe we are the victim of somewhat random outputs from a computer algorithm.


Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 30 September 2020 - 09:27 AM.


GonerNL #178 Posted 30 September 2020 - 11:41 AM

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If it was really random, you would expect to be on the good side of 'balancing' about half the time ... in my experience (mostly CIS server lately) that doesn't happen. Normally I don't mind my WR, but in the last week it has dropped 2% ; that is a lot of defeats !!

 



TungstenHitman #179 Posted 01 October 2020 - 08:51 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 26 September 2020 - 08:09 PM, said:

Yeah, you'd almost start to believe in Karma ... on the EU server the matchmaking is just atrocious, as usual, but the crapis at least evenly distributed.

 

But on the CIS server it's unbelievable ; out of every 10 battles I get 9 where the enemy team has more flights, more specialists (and I mean like 5 vs 1, or 4 vs 0) , higher tier human bombers vs lower tier bots. Just bad luck ?

 

I would have found all 3 of the WG's major offerings(WoT, WoWS, WoWP) to be heavily weighted. Luck and coincidence tend to be plausible for less frequently occurring things in life and indeed games but with WG's games, this "luck" comes in bunches and waves along with being predictable therefore it's game design, not luck would by opinion on the matter. 

 

Apart from a flight or platoon, and the purposefully designed "always bottom tier" MM, then all the rest is supposed to be random, from team construction to RNG, but it's clearly not. Generally it's ok for the majority of battles, but there's most definitely some sort of algorithm which a player triggers by either winning or losing too much and also for playing too much and not enough along with other possible circumstances. This indeed triggers an MM heavily weighted favorably or unfavorably from team construction to RNG. If you flip a coin it theoretically should land 50/50 over a decent sample size but in this game, it that random 50/50 outcome tends to not be the case for a session or even a day or two. 

 

How do I know? Well I've played probably over 50k battles in WoT across several accounts. If one account is played a lot, it gets shhh MM and if I decided to play an account I had not played for a long time, it gets easy MM, this is one of the games preferential MM I identified very early tbh. As for the loss streaks and winning steaks. Sure, these streaks will naturally happen just through law of averages, play enough battles and these things manifest but the difference we need to identify is with the RNG within those streaks. If generally RNG is neither one way or the other, then loss and winning streaks are just how it goes sometimes BUT, if it's clear that not only are you getting the good or bad teams for consecutive battles but also very generous or evil RNG, then the whole "bad or good luck" and coincidence goes out the window. 



Ato_sato #180 Posted 01 October 2020 - 07:09 PM

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About WOT true (60,000 fighting experience) .WoWP though I have not noticed such problems.




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