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A Breath of Spring


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jakub_czyli_ja #61 Posted 06 March 2020 - 08:51 PM

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View PostSPIDER000, on 05 March 2020 - 03:49 PM, said:

But how can you tell, if any player decided to quit battle, or was just disconected?

Then you have to start persecuting even those, who just suffer from these disconection issues.

I'd try such sophisticated approach like to check whether button to leave the battle had been pressed and hangar is being loaded.

 

On the other side - banning players leaving battles is really stupid, and leads to even smaller player base, which is one of the last things WG would want.

Instead of that WG should really think why players leave battles, and fix the reason, not the result.

 

View Postlevlos, on 06 March 2020 - 07:27 AM, said:

we all get frustrated: randomness is a pendulum going either way. Or a two edged-blade. Or a coin with two sides. Or a mask that... oh you get the jist. Thing is, you are a good player, you shot me down in your Horten 229 quite a few times. How would you like if the entire human team quit as soon as they saw you in the enemy team ? What would be the point ? We all take spankings once-in-a-while: 3 or 4 captured red sectors within a minute, team-mates with 2000 points that fire at bunkers with their light fighters while there are 7 enemy fighters above... You know all those things happen.

Problem that far too often it doesn't look like a randomness.

I don't know like Horcan, but since we apparently share some approach, I can describe what I would do: I'd shake my shoulders, say "nice, whatever", and then would try to beat the crap out of every target I could, trying to score as much points as possible, exploiting the situation.

For me human/bot in red tagged plane is only a factor in a threat priority algorithm.

Apparently for some it's a way to massage ego.

 

Block Quote

 Yet, even those games can be fun. I lost one yesterday, where nobody went to capture the plant besides me, no-one defended anything, and everyone died like flies. Still, I cracked some jokes at how pathetic we were, dished a few (sour yet throughtful) advices to the inept players, and I ended up exchanging friendly comments with the enemy team-mates. Think of it: they all had gone through the exact same routine, and understood what had happened. Still, I gave all I had, made a ton of points, even shot down their best player with my tail gunner. That was not a wasted game. Who gives a toss about winning: I advanced my dailies, have enough materials to upgrade my mother into a cyborg, and my crew gained some XP.

Somehow anectodic argument is only anecdotic - for every carried out despite dead weight battle, there are far more battles lost by dead weight.

So I can live with one out of 10 battles lost because lack of my active participation as a price fo saved time.

 


Edited by jakub_czyli_ja, 06 March 2020 - 09:07 PM.


levlos #62 Posted 06 March 2020 - 09:50 PM

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<shrug>

 

you are right, when you play a football match, and the enemy scores a goal, go sit on a bench. You understand team-spirit, read a magazine, move the players off the bench and play cards. Is that anecdotal enough for you -oh no wait, its a metaphore. Before, it was not an anecdote, but a parable -or perhaps not. We are not being philosophical -only Zen Monk can. People that leave are straight wankers -all arguments around "the dice is cast", " I am a very busy person, I dont have the time for this", "I am too old for this shiit", "there is a lack of content", "I got rhumatisms" are just bad excuses for being a bad team player, period. I would propose the quitting players to get negative credit penalties. The higher the tier, the higher the penalty -hit them where it hurts. From 2.000 to 25.000 depending on the tier. They could also have materiasl removed, whith which they could build some cybernetic balls to carry around.


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zen_monk_ #63 Posted 07 March 2020 - 12:04 AM

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View Postlevlos, on 06 March 2020 - 10:50 PM, said:

We are not being philosophical -only Zen Monk can.

 

Thank you, so I will with the words of a wiser man.

 

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

    And treat those two impostors just the same;   

 

... but your very first sentence after the line I quoted from your text(your first six words) is pure zen, worthy to be incorporated in If.


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RoyalFlyingCorps #64 Posted 07 March 2020 - 06:11 AM

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I have it on good authority that all people who quit battles early are existential nihilists.  As an aside, Zen is neither philosophy nor religion; it's a lifestyle.

Kissa_ei_kuulu_pakkaseen #65 Posted 07 March 2020 - 09:54 AM

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View PostblindfoId, on 04 March 2020 - 11:52 AM, said:

 

The data is already being processed. We'll try to post results and send rewards on Thursday/Friday

 

Have the rewards been awarded already? Anywhere to see the results list?



jakub_czyli_ja #66 Posted 07 March 2020 - 10:05 AM

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View Postlevlos, on 06 March 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

<shrug>

 

you are right, when you play a football match, and the enemy scores a goal, go sit on a bench. You understand team-spirit, read a magazine, move the players off the bench and play cards. Is that anecdotal enough for you -oh no wait, its a metaphore. Before, it was not an anecdote, but a parable -or perhaps not. We are not being philosophical -only Zen Monk can. People that leave are straight wankers -all arguments around "the dice is cast", " I am a very busy person, I dont have the time for this", "I am too old for this shiit", "there is a lack of content", "I got rhumatisms" are just bad excuses for being a bad team player, period. I would propose the quitting players to get negative credit penalties. The higher the tier, the higher the penalty -hit them where it hurts. From 2.000 to 25.000 depending on the tier. They could also have materiasl removed, whith which they could build some cybernetic balls to carry around.

 

Comparing WoWP to a football game is a really nice achievement of WG PR team.

Only that it's false.

 

There is at least one tiny detail that breaks everything - what match is it.

Is it a club game or a game in the yard?

 

I think we can rule club game out immediately, because clubs build their teams, they are not drawn randomly. Club manager can say that they are truly sorry, but you can't play and please don't.

I, as a WowP player, can't kick anybody from a battle, so it's definitely not the case.

 

A yard game left - kids from neighborhood came and started playing.

 

Or not really - even kids understand that some play better, some worse, and they do balancing. Like a draft. So finally there would be similar players in both teams.

Which is not present in WoWP.

 

To have an analogy between WoWP and a football game, you'd have to have few thousands players, randomly draw teams, and order them to play - running, kicking, all that tiring stuff (I suck in football, so I don't play). For peanuts. Or even expect them to pay you.

While they don't have any influence on game rules, contrary to clubs and kids described above.

 

You really think that everybody every time would play as best as they could?

 

Now the clue:

And I don't care that anybody calls me wanker. It's my time and I decide how I'll waste it.

When I leave a game - if you are in the opposite team - use it and get more points, because I won't interfere.

If you were in my team - l2p.

If you are in opposite team and you get angry, it's like Horcan wrote - you play to massage your ego. Go to shrink.

 

Football analogy would work for any team mode that players can draw.



BravelyRanAway #67 Posted 07 March 2020 - 10:46 AM

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View PostSPIDER000, on 05 March 2020 - 03:49 PM, said:

 

But how can you tell, if any player decided to quit battle, or was just disconected?

Then you have to start persecuting even those, who just suffer from these disconection issues.

Surely, just exiting a battle early puts you back in your garage so there's no disconnect. As for disconnecting a modem for effect.....that would lead to a long evening of restarting games with little play. 


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Frateras #68 Posted 07 March 2020 - 11:29 AM

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Someone who quits the battle alive before it ends should be excluded for three hours at least. On World of Warships I had such a bug, I could not access the game any more, then they destroyed my ship and I was admonished for desertion.

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levlos #69 Posted 07 March 2020 - 12:09 PM

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Jacub,

 

It is exactly what you say it is, a yard game where teams are random. Sometimes you get the short straw, sometimes you don't. Sometimes your team is good, sometimes your team is bad. What you imply is that you are entitled to choose and play only with good teams, and you have the birth-right to angrily quit when you are in a bad one. That is, you want to choose your team, you want to play on your criteria, you are the sole judge of the universe on what is right, wrong, good or bad.

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but you will live in a world of hurt if you think you lay the rules for everyone. If there is someone who has ego issues, it is you because your ego seems to be the sole yardstick with which you assess reality. I accept being in a bad team because what goes around comes around. Meaning, I outgrew my 4-year old equivalent, and I do not grovel down on the floor stomping my feet because sometimes the odds are against me. Some obviously did not mature this graciously.

 

The veil of hypocricy cannot hide the egocentric view of the world. Or, as Copernicus could have put it : "E pur si muove" -of course talking about WoWP matchmaking: freely translated as "and yet it moves on without taking only you in account".


Edited by levlos, 07 March 2020 - 12:09 PM.

- You can't shoot me! I have a very low threshold of death. My doctor says I can't have bullets enter my body at any time.-

- Handle these capsules with care. Dr. Noah's bacillus is highly contagious. This germ, when distributed in the atmosphere will make all women beautiful and destroy all men over 4'6."-

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jakub_czyli_ja #70 Posted 07 March 2020 - 12:25 PM

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View PostFrateras, on 07 March 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

Someone who quits the battle alive before it ends should be excluded for three hours at least. On World of Warships I had such a bug, I could not access the game any more, then they destroyed my ship and I was admonished for desertion.

Great joke.

Every idea that leads to mass decrease of number of players is indeed something that WG needs for WowP.

 

All these events are to encourage players to play.

Of course they are put into game system that makes playing good battles with plenty of bounty as hard as possible (this is another part of failed comparison WoWP to a football game that I didn't cover), which means that it's natural that players seek for a way to beat the hostile system.

 

Yet most of you blame players looking for ways to achieving defined results within defined set of rules.

Staying in battle till the end is not a rule. Had it be, it would be implemented in game client. Unfortunately for all sportsman, there is an option to leave.

 



levlos #71 Posted 07 March 2020 - 12:43 PM

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View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 07 March 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

[...]  it's natural that players seek for a way to beat the hostile system. [...]

 

What you call "hostile system" is the game itself. You feel the game is actively trying to sabotage your fun ? Someone sounds a tad paranoid here.

 

Randomness abides to the law of great numbers: given a large amount of games, there MM balances out. But you should not abide by any rules, right ? Someone sounds a bit entitled here.


- You can't shoot me! I have a very low threshold of death. My doctor says I can't have bullets enter my body at any time.-

- Handle these capsules with care. Dr. Noah's bacillus is highly contagious. This germ, when distributed in the atmosphere will make all women beautiful and destroy all men over 4'6."-

ApartClassic - 'may all your certainly illegitimate progeny suffer pox or at least perpetual flu'


jakub_czyli_ja #72 Posted 07 March 2020 - 12:58 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 07 March 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

Jacub,

 

It is exactly what you say it is, a yard game where teams are random.

No, it is not.

Even at yard game, teams are not random - read again what I rote - they are DRAFTED.

 

In case you don't understand word "draft" (or don't want to), I'll explain.

In my times, 2 to be team captains, decided who picks first (toss a coin, draw a straw, whatever is perceived fair by all involved), and then one by one picked kids willing to play.

Of course each picked the best available kid from the pool, so teams were balanced as it was possible, because even kids knew, who is good, and who is a rank filler.

 

There is no such thing in WoWP - there are ape like planes sighed that are controlled by player, there are bots that vary from brick to a fighter ace, sometimes even in a timeframe of a battle.

 

Block Quote

Sometimes you get the short straw, sometimes you don't. Sometimes your team is good, sometimes your team is bad.

And writing that you somehow admit, that battle result is predefined before the battle starts.

So why should I bother, if I can draw another straw?

Block Quote

What you imply is that you are entitled to choose and play only with good teams, and you have the birth-right to angrily quit when you are in a bad one.

More likely I'd like to choose and play battles that don't seem to be set up, and where I can try to achieve something, and have a reasonable chance to achieve. Not a landslide battle like 100 to 800, or 800 to 100.

I have a right to leave a battle that doesn't enjoy me, because I have a keyboard, mouse, and such option in game UI.

Usually I have no ties to any other battle participant.

Block Quote

  That is, you want to choose your team, you want to play on your criteria, you are the sole judge of the universe on what is right, wrong, good or bad.

I wish that team doesn't determine the battle.

I wish to play on criteria that I perceive honest.

And I'm the sole judge as I wish to waste my free time and how I find enjoyment. And wasting a time in lost battle is for sure not the case.

Block Quote

Sorry to disappoint you, but you will live in a world of hurt if you think you lay the rules for everyone.

Sorry to disappoint you, but me leaving a battle is not setting rules for everyone. I use possibility that everybody have. You trying to forbid me to do so are trying to lay rules for everyone.

 

If it will be implemented - ok, I'll acknowledge. Obvious consequence will be that more players will leave, but it somehow doesn't bother you, but bothers WG a bit. That also doesn't bother you much, because it's not your paycheck.

Block Quote

 If there is someone who has ego issues, it is you because your ego seems to be the sole yardstick with which you assess reality.

Why should it be different?

Block Quote

I accept being in a bad team because what goes around comes around. Meaning, I outgrew my 4-year old equivalent, and I do not grovel down on the floor stomping my feet because sometimes the odds are against me. Some obviously did not mature this graciously.

I acknowledge being in bad team, and since it's going to be lost anyway, I save my time. I can live with a margin of 1out of 10 battles that could be tipped.

I don't know why is it so hard to accept that from my point of view, my time is obviously worth more than yours, and all reasons that it seems to bother you seem to me like your ego issues.

It's clear hypocrisy from your side, because demanding me wasting my time trying to carry a lost battle, you want me to spend my time in your favor, so at the same time you accuse me of being egocentric and valuing my time more than yours, and you do the same with your and mine time.

Block Quote

 The veil of hypocricy cannot hide the egocentric view of the world. Or, as Copernicus could have put it : "E pur si muove" -of course talking about WoWP matchmaking: freely translated as "and yet it moves on without taking only you in account".

I've never hide that I'm egocentric. It's my free time, my money and my enjoyment at the first place.

I always wanted WoWP to be designed for such egocentric players - fair, honest, balance. Skill based matchmaker. Team modes. Still nothing of such in WoWP.

Not crap like "what goes around, comes around".

 

I don't have much issues with losing a battle where I see that all players did their best.

Losing a battle when I scored two times more that other, or even all other human players, causes some issues. Maybe try to go to work, have a team and do all team's work and get even paid. Then you might start to understand that collective responsibility isn't great idea.



Horcan #73 Posted 07 March 2020 - 01:06 PM

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I dont know how you people played football when you were kids, but as i recall, each "captain" picked alternatively the ones they thought they are better, with those fat , cant run 10 meters kids drawn last and assigned as goalkeepers. Unless you were some landlord kid and weak players were put on the opposite team so you always win. Which seems the case in wowp, since i cant explain how can people working there think that putting 6 specialised planes vs none is fair. And stupid ideas like banning people for leaving simply wont work. Because if i end up in a battle i dont like to play , i simply go to kitchen fix a cofee or something and afk. It doesnt mean i am going to actually play the battle, and we still get back to what i said, that you people actually just want the opposition to be there so you fuel your ego when you win and write that GG in their face, not because you give a damn about fair play. So the only solution as i see it is trying to remove the reasons why people quit early, not punishing people for doing it.

PS:and everyone playing in flights with op planes, dont even dare talk to me about fair play. Beacause you from the start are the antagonists of fair play. You play like that especially to have an advantage over the enemy.


Edited by Horcan, 07 March 2020 - 01:12 PM.

Retired from this censored BS forum

jakub_czyli_ja #74 Posted 07 March 2020 - 01:14 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 07 March 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

What you call "hostile system" is the game itself. You feel the game is actively trying to sabotage your fun ? Someone sounds a tad paranoid here.

Paranoid?

Try to pull  your head from the other side.

 

Rewards for win are proportional to achievements, so to get a good reward, player needs to achieve as much as possible.

There are some bonuses for achievements, like tokens.

 

And here we have random battles, with 3 caps and 400 points limit, 4 caps and 600 points limit, and 5 caps with 800 points limits.

Are you going to deny that the highest probability to achieve best results are 5 cap battles?

 

So if goal is to score as much as possible in a given amount of battles, every considered battle that is not 5 cap, reduces the possible amount of score. I hope this is obvious for everyone.

 

Here is the question - are battles with 3 and 4 caps just an accident, or are they put deliberately in game?

If they are an accident, why aren't they removed?

If they are deliberate choice, why had it been made?

 

So game is designed to reduce possibility of scoring high scores. Not hostile, not sabotaging fun at all.

 

Block Quote

Randomness abides to the law of great numbers: given a large amount of games, there MM balances out. But you should not abide by any rules, right ? Someone sounds a bit entitled here.

I prefer other randomness, without great numbers.

Game with balanced teams wouldn't have to have great numbers, teams would balance outcome by themselves pretty quick.

 



zen_monk_ #75 Posted 07 March 2020 - 07:17 PM

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All of this said here only supports my long-time plea: base the rewards according to personal achievements, not the idiotic win/lose where most of the players feel it's out of their control.

 

So play every battle to your fullest.


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Shiafa #76 Posted 07 March 2020 - 09:24 PM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 07 March 2020 - 08:17 PM, said:

All of this said here only supports my long-time plea: base the rewards according to personal achievements, not the idiotic win/lose where most of the players feel it's out of their control.

 

So play every battle to your fullest.


..this!


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GonerNL #77 Posted 07 March 2020 - 09:33 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 06 March 2020 - 10:50 PM, said:

you are right, when you play a football match, and the enemy scores a goal, go sit on a bench. 

 

Please stop comparing a computer lottery game with a team that exists for 3/4 of bots (AI) and sometimes 1 or 2 real people with other missions than yours with a real life team game . It's not even apples and pears ...



prawiejakzywiec666 #78 Posted 08 March 2020 - 09:32 AM

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I do not know why you try to find so many excuses of your early quits. You stab your team in the back with this kind of egoistic thinking. There is no explanation of that kind of behaviour.

Zen has a good point - good performance in a match should be rewarded without the win condition.


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clovisbxl #79 Posted 08 March 2020 - 10:21 AM

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I had a look to comments here, and my feeling is everyone is right here !

 

Of course leaving a party is quite egoist (and I don't) but when there is a challenge based on the first 15 battles, and you enter in a party with 3 bases and 400 points limit, added to the fact (when you are quite good player) the 3 bases are taken in maximum 2 mn.... it's almost impossible to perform with a personal score near 20000, that's just mathematics here.

 

So the lower cap of 3000 PP is the door to run away, and limiting the challenge to the 15 first battles invites people to take this door immediatly.

I don't say people were not leaving in previous challenges, but the pressure due to this condition makes people to take it more and quicker.

 

When the condition was on the "best" parties, I think more people would have play it, and at worst it would have counted for perseverance challenge.

 

Coming back to this challenge, I limit myself to the 15 first parties in the two categories, and I'm quite sure I will be very badly classified in Mastery (not even sure I will be) just because of those situations when party ends after 3mn and I only reached 7000PP being first of the team !

So it could be interpreted as "I didn't leave the party, so I'm penalized and will be not rated in mastery challenge". I only managed to reach more than 20kPP (20435) in a single party for both challenges !

My only hope is that it will be the same for the other players :unsure:

 

 



jakub_czyli_ja #80 Posted 08 March 2020 - 11:20 AM

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View Postprawiejakzywiec666, on 08 March 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

I do not know why you try to find so many excuses of your early quits. You stab your team in the back with this kind of egoistic thinking. There is no explanation of that kind of behaviour.

Of course there is, and you've got it.

It's your problem that you don't acknowledge it, for whatever reason.






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