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levlos #21 Posted 10 March 2020 - 07:19 AM

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If people think that the Soviets are logistical idiots, then think again: let's look at the battle of Khalgin Gol, in bloody 1939. There, the soviets thrashed the Japanese for good.

 

"[...] However the Soviets ultimately achieved a totally decisive victory in this "Small War" by the sharp tactical and logistical strategies and decisions made by General Georgy Zhukov, the great hero of World War 2 and later Marshall of the Soviet Union, following his leadership and record of sucess (and survival) on the Eastern Front 1942-1945. Regardless the Khalkhin Gol-Nomonhan conflict remains important not just in acknowledging the importance of logistics, strategy, and tactics in relation to battlefield command (and strength of force), but in also understanding the shifting balance of power, both militarily and politically in Asia and the Far East in 1939."

 

“Beginning at Khalkin Gol, intensive logistic preparation became a Zhukov hallmark. The Japanese underestimated the Soviets in many ways. In particular, they never imagined the Soviets would be able to sustain a large combined arms force on the Mongolian frontier, nearly 600 kilometers from the nearest railway. Yet, during the artillery duals leading up to the offensive, it was the Soviet gunners who were able to fire several rounds to each fired by the enemy. This was true despite the fact that the Soviet supply lines were much longer than those of the Japanese. This would again set the pattern for later operations against the Germans. Time and again, Zhukov ensured that operational plans included the logistic underpinnings necessary for success. This often extended beyond food and ammunition. One example is evident at Kursk, where the Germans lost hundreds of tanks due to damage or mechanical breakdown. German tank recovery and repair units, operating from the rear, were simply unable to get to the front. The Soviet tank repair battalions, on the other hand, operated with the armored units themselves. Though they were exposed to higher losses, the Soviet tank repair units were able to quickly return hundreds of broken down or damaged tanks to combat.”

 

Logistics were already deemed paramount in 1939. I very much doubt the Soviets would act like the Germans in 1944 and launch an attack hoping to refuel from an enemy fuel dump.

 

About Maskirovka:

 

"By mid-war the Soviets had fully mastered radio discipline and communications security. Camouflage techniques had progressed significantly, and the Soviets had largely mastered the difficult task of quickly relocating troops to take advantage of German weak points. Zhukov noted that by that time the Soviets were much better at keeping their intentions secret and at spreading disinformation and misleading the enemy. By then most Soviet units were using code tables in all radio and telephone transmissions. Codes were being changed every 24 hours, and cipher keys were being transmitted only by courier. An extremely detailed maskirovka component was included in each operational plan.

In Belorussia, as part of Operation Bagration in mid-1944, Soviet tanks and guns rolled out of the swamps on the northern edge of the Pripet Marshes, surprising German defenders. Undetected by the Germans, Soviet engineers had laid wooden causeways, creating makeshift roads for the Soviet armor that made gains of 25 miles per day against the startled Germans, who dropped back against the remorseless onslaught."

 

" The 1944 Operation Bagration in Belarus applied the strategic aims and objectives on a grand scale,to deceive the Germans about the scale and objectives of the offensive.The historian Paul Adair commented that "Once the Stavka had decided upon the strategic plan for their 1944 summer offensive [Bagration], they began to consider how the Germans could be deceived about the aims and scale of the offensive... the key to the maskirovka operation was to reinforce the German conviction that operations would continue along this [southern] axis".In particular, Stavka needed to be certain that the Germans believed the main Soviet attack would be in the south. The Soviet plan successfully kept the German reserves doing nothing south of the Pripyat marshes until the battle to the north in Belorussia had already been decided.Stavka succeeded in concealing the size and position of very large movements of supplies, as well as of forces including seven armies, eleven aviation corps and over 200,000 troop replacements. As for the strategic offensive itself, its location, strength and timing were effectively concealed. Stavka and the Red Army applied the doctrine of military deception at three levels:

  • Strategic (theatre-wide):Stavka hid the location, strength, and timing of the attack, with dummy troop concentrations on the flanks displayed to the enemy before the battle, other offensives timed to work as diversions, and forces left where the enemy expected an attack (3 tank armies in Ukraine), away from the true location of the attack (Belarus)
  • Operational: the Red Army hid the locations, strengths and objectives of each force[21]
  • Tactical: each unit hid its concentrations of troops, armour and guns

The German Army Group Centre (where the main attack fell) underestimated Soviet infantry by 40%, mechanized forces by 300% and the number of tanks as 400 to 1800, instead of the 4000 to 5200 in fact arrayed against them.[21] The German high command (OKH) and Adolf Hitler grossly underestimated the threat to Army Group Centre, confidently redeploying a third of its artillery, half its tank destroyers and 88% of its tanks to the Southern front where OKH expected the Soviet attack. "

 

more about it here. In PDF, 1982 American study.

 

We are not talking about amateurs here. It is true though that the allied air force would put the hurt on the logistical tail of the Russian formations, just like it had happened in 1941-1942 and even 1943. The soviets were quite short of mobile flak, and would have to move stuff around at night or in camouflaged way. Still, we are not talking about a confined front, as Jacub mistakenly says, but about the whole of Germany, Austria and even the Baltic. That is the front: the USAF cannot be everywhere.

 

Plus, let's not forget that while the Soviets have experience about facing large enemy coherent and veteran formations, the allies have none. You cannot call the poor 21st Panzer Division significant, and the pathetic German attack before the Falaise battle could muster about 130 armored vehicles -with their attack plan completely intercepted by ULTRA. I will not even talk about the small pincer moves of the winter 1944. They were single or double division attacks on very narrow fronts (see how one attack prong was stopped at the little village of Bastogne). We are talking about hundreds of divisions moving across good roads supported by massive artillery -something the allies have never faced yet. Without the help of ULTRA (which people tend to underestimate), the allied advantages evaporate.

 

Last but not least, the 1945 crop harvest was the worst in a very long time, and the winters of 1945-46 and the next were completely miserable. For two years, the allies struggled to feed their own (about half the calories available), and the Germans and Austrians were doing nothing else than hunting and foraging for food. Feeding the lot "to avoid unrest" already put the allied logistic network under serious stress. So this is not all so rosy for the good guys.


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apartclassic #22 Posted 10 March 2020 - 09:07 AM

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Very good points, thank you for that - I'm thinking that if you put it into some sort of graphical form, it would've been something magnificent again ;)

 

Let me drop an offtopic note on something, namely this:

 

View Postlevlos, on 10 March 2020 - 07:19 AM, said:

Without the help of ULTRA (which people tend to underestimate), the allied advantages evaporate.

 

There's a fascinating thing about Doenitz's memoires ('10 Jahre und 20 Tage'). He was presenting the uboot warfare in a very specific way, far from the version we are accustomeds to. It was more like a job, a description of play and counterplay, like a description of a gigantic part of chess. Interestingly though, at the time of the writing he was completely unaware of ULTRA (existence and significance of which started surfacing only in 1974, while Doenitz was writing in 1956-58 after his release from Spandau). From his point of view a lot hinged on the deployment and advancement of radar technology, coupled with numerical advantage by the Allies. Even though some events could have been hardly explained by those two factors, ULTRA and the intelligence successes of Allies were totally beyond his knowledge (though he certainly suspected some of it). The whole book, and the history of war on Atlantic, reads very differently for us - with all the declassified facts we have access to - than to our grandparents, who were still ignorant of so many things. What he - the active actor and even creator of much of the story - depicts gets additional dimensions for us, with everything that has been learned since his times. As they say, hindsight 20/20, and we enjoy the luxury of being quite a few steps ahead of him. I recommend the book, it's a very engaging read.


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zen_monk_ #23 Posted 10 March 2020 - 09:29 AM

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Thank you for reminding me on Doenitz's memoires - one of those "I have to read it" and then forgotten books.

 

For all interested in the whole submarine thingy of WW2 I can't recommend strongly enough these two Clay Blair's books:

 

Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunters, 1939-1942
Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted, 1942-45 (Vol 2)

 

Day by day, boat by boat, action by action record on how it went. Brilliant historic work.


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jakub_czyli_ja #24 Posted 10 March 2020 - 07:48 PM

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Soviets did amazing thing and managed to build up for 2 major offensives - Mars and Uranus, while Germans were too stretched to defend against them both.

It was like bet red and black in roulette, only difference was that successes of both operations weren't mutually exclusive.

When it become clear that Mars won't do and Uranus will, available effort was shifted toward Uranus. Bloodshed went under propaganda cover, because it's handy to be able to justify losses of tens of thousands soldiers to gain virtually nothing.

 

Moscow 1941 wasn't the first time of any of mentioned commanders.

Zhukov was commanding at Khalkhin Gol and some other high leaderships during initial stage of Barbarossa. I'm too lazy to quote big portions of Wikipedia, so here are only things to looks for: counterattack near Suwałki, Yelnya Offensive,

Rokossovsky managed to visit Gulag after the purge, then was released and commanded during fights on Ukraine - failed large scale counterattack ordered by Zhukov at Dubno, arrest because he refused to attack further, then only purely defensive operation at Smolensk.

Konev also commanded on Ukraine.

Lelushenko had bit less experience, but also was commanding, during the Winter War, at brigade level.

 

So stop repeating propaganda that it was first counteroffensive, led by new commanders. Commanders weren't new, and simply all previous Soviet counteroffensives failed, so there was nothing to brag off.

Near Moscow Germans were simply too stretched and lacked supplies and reinforcements, while Soviets managed to mass troops. Same at Stalingrad a year later.

 

Deep Operation theory itself  wasn't anything new in 1941, as it was few years old. Offensively oriented Soviets tried counterattacks over and over again, since Operation Barbarossa beginning, and Moscow was the first time when it more or less worked.

Contrary to, for example, Operation Mars, where divisions penetrated German defenses, but without further luck.

6 thousands men wasn't full rooster even for Soviet division, it's about 40% understaffed. Given poor situation on the front of both sides, they may be considered strong, comparing to others with half that staff.

 

I can compare Soviet divisions to Allied ones.

Given that 6k troops in division was considered normal for Red Army even in 1945 (quick google shown nice numbers here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=112693&sid=4d78f5d00dca28ede8f546358849761f ), and Allied division having about 20k manpower, frontline forces could be like 2 or 3 Soviet divisions to 1 Allied.

So from nice propaganda number of 400 it dwindles down to less than 200. Lazy search shows, that Allies had 91 divisions while invading Germany, which gives 2:1 ratio for Soviets. It's more or less ratio from the Battle of the Bulge.

3 days were enough to slow down Germans without aerial support.

 

Single Soviet rifle division (estimated at 15000 men - that probably includes rear troops as well as frontline) consumed some 270 tons of supplies daily. That's 130 trucks per 6-8k frontline troops. 400 divisions - some 100000 of supplies daily.

Single supply train was estimated to 450 tons (30-40 wagons) -  240 trains per day to supply all divisions.

 

Whole army had to be supplied from a very far, through very vast and quite incomplete railroad network, with mediocre traffic management (Germans were able to run more trains through a rail line than Soviets), with a good amount of these rails within range of strategic bombers - Italy, France, Norway - no railroad would be safe to the Oder river, if not to Vistula, trains wouldn't be very lucky also, as they are kind of easy to spot.

 

No way that Soviet troops would be able to push much forward. Rhine could become their final frontier.

zen_monk_ #25 Posted 10 March 2020 - 07:54 PM

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jakub_czyli_ja #26 Posted 10 March 2020 - 08:20 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 10 March 2020 - 07:19 AM, said:

We are not talking about amateurs here. It is true though that the allied air force would put the hurt on the logistical tail of the Russian formations, just like it had happened in 1941-1942 and even 1943. The soviets were quite short of mobile flak, and would have to move stuff around at night or in camouflaged way. Still, we are not talking about a confined front, as Jacub mistakenly says, but about the whole of Germany, Austria and even the Baltic. That is the front: the USAF cannot be everywhere.

 

Plus, let's not forget that while the Soviets have experience about facing large enemy coherent and veteran formations, the allies have none. You cannot call the poor 21st Panzer Division significant, and the pathetic German attack before the Falaise battle could muster about 130 armored vehicles -with their attack plan completely intercepted by ULTRA. I will not even talk about the small pincer moves of the winter 1944. They were single or double division attacks on very narrow fronts (see how one attack prong was stopped at the little village of Bastogne). We are talking about hundreds of divisions moving across good roads supported by massive artillery -something the allies have never faced yet. Without the help of ULTRA (which people tend to underestimate), the allied advantages evaporate.

 

Last but not least, the 1945 crop harvest was the worst in a very long time, and the winters of 1945-46 and the next were completely miserable. For two years, the allies struggled to feed their own (about half the calories available), and the Germans and Austrians were doing nothing else than hunting and foraging for food. Feeding the lot "to avoid unrest" already put the allied logistic network under serious stress. So this is not all so rosy for the good guys.

There aren't much areas, where Soviets could launch full scale attack, there are only Germany where tanks can effectively roll. Austria are mountains, Switzerland is no-go, even for Soviets.

USAF along with RAF managed to be everywhere over Western Germany when Allies approached.

 

Soviets were so experienced in facing coherent and veteran formations, that they allowed to happen battles like Radzymin or Bautzen (well, here inexperienced Poles player main role).

Victories like Seelow Heights were achieved by outnumbering defenders 10 to 1 with tremendous loses.

Whole Soviet experience can be summed up as piling up resources and saturating defenders to the point, that they weren't able to hold. Everything while having at least local aerial superiority.

 

Without aerial superiority, you can do maskirovka all the way you want, smoke from train will be visible from miles.

 

If Allies struggled in 1945 and 1946, how bad would be the situation in Soviet Union, vastly supplied by USA through LL (which is immediately cut off), where the most fertile lands on Ukraine were recaptured only a year ago?

 

 



levlos #27 Posted 10 March 2020 - 10:23 PM

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The soviets would simply let the population starve, and shoot what moved. Having seen their citizen eat each other in Leningrad and seing Germans at work in the Greater Eastern Reich would barely make them shrug. Raw hatred would be their motivation to reach the bloody Rhine. Anybody stopping them would be an ally of the Germans: that is simple-cut. Retribution. What motivation would the US GI have ? They already expected to be home at the end of 1944. Weren't the Russians allies ? Why fight them now that the diabolic Teutonic enemy is striken ?

 

Think: the allied aircraft could 'roam' over Germany because they had no proper target to shoot at, nor any real enemy to stop and no air opposition.

 

Yes, the Soviets would badly miss the US trucks. Yes, the railway gauge would be different. Yes, they would know all that. No, these facts do not turn the exhausted and demotivated allied troops into David Crocket.

Also, good luck having Germans as allies once their atrocities would be known. More fantasies. Shhh, lets not tell anybody about Dachau, and give them fuel and tanks, right ?

 

The final battles of 1945 were a bloodbath because time was of the essence. Shaping reality to fit your pre-conceived narrow-minded obsessions is not how critical thinking works.

 

Reading you, its a miracle the US troops did not invade Moscow in 1944, the Urals in 1945, and Japan througn Mongolia and China in 1946. That would have been swell, right ? Make America great again !


Edited by levlos, 10 March 2020 - 10:25 PM.

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jakub_czyli_ja #28 Posted 11 March 2020 - 05:54 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 10 March 2020 - 10:23 PM, said:

The soviets would simply let the population starve, and shoot what moved. Having seen their citizen eat each other in Leningrad and seing Germans at work in the Greater Eastern Reich would barely make them shrug. Raw hatred would be their motivation to reach the bloody Rhine. Anybody stopping them would be an ally of the Germans: that is simple-cut. Retribution. What motivation would the US GI have ? They already expected to be home at the end of 1944. Weren't the Russians allies ? Why fight them now that the diabolic Teutonic enemy is striken ?

Reason would be simple - because Soviets would shoot at GIs.

USA didn't enter IIWW to save the World from Total Evil, but to win and establish USA dominance. French and British colonial empires collapsed, Germany lost. Two superpowers emerged: Soviet Union and USA.

 

So having industrial supremacy, backed up by UK (kinda hard to invade), having Soviet Navy behind Danish Straits, USA would fight Soviets till the very end - Soviet Union crumbling. With far more reasonable approach to politics, they could manage to achieve what Nazis didn't.

Block Quote

 Think: the allied aircraft could 'roam' over Germany because they had no proper target to shoot at, nor any real enemy to stop and no air opposition.

And the same would happen to Soviets - VVS would be swept from the air within days due to allied material supremacy. Soviets quite liked Airacobras, which USAAF rejected.

 

Block Quote

Yes, the Soviets would badly miss the US trucks. Yes, the railway gauge would be different. Yes, they would know all that. No, these facts do not turn the exhausted and demotivated allied troops into David Crocket.

And at the same time would make Soviet troops supermen?

 

Block Quote

Also, good luck having Germans as allies once their atrocities would be known. More fantasies. Shhh, lets not tell anybody about Dachau, and give them fuel and tanks, right ?

You know, Americans have really liberal approach to allies. Heard about Anastasio Somoza García? Operation Paperclip?

Query PoWs, pick those without tattoo in the armpit, and give them back their weapons to defend their folks. To die instead of US citizens. What not to like? History is written by victors, and after hypothetical USA USSR war it could turn out that Soviets, instead of Nazis, were The Ultimate Evil, with Hlodomor, GULags and all that stuff.

Numbers are on Soviet side after all.

 

Block Quote

The final battles of 1945 were a bloodbath because time was of the essence. Shaping reality to fit your pre-conceived narrow-minded obsessions is not how critical thinking works.

Radzymin was time essential? To just stay at Vistula a little longer?

 

Block Quote

 Reading you, its a miracle the US troops did not invade Moscow in 1944, the Urals in 1945, and Japan througn Mongolia and China in 1946. That would have been swell, right ? Make America great again !

Or because Stalin kept promise.

Quite probably because it was more beneficial than attacking Allies, and getting hit by A bombs.

USA needed Stalin's promise to avoid Operation Downfall and tremendous losses.



levlos #29 Posted 12 March 2020 - 08:57 AM

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Because it is tiring to argue with you while you entrench yourself behind stereotypes and half-baked wishful ideas that date about 40-50 years and are the racist product of German post-war propaganda, I will direct you to some links. You will notice that the Soviet spies were aware of everything that was happening, right ? Operation Unthinkable for instance was on Stalin's desk well before it could have started being implemented.

 

General Patton who said

“We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore, their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons draw by beaten up old hoses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them... Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives.”

 

Of course, Patton was a megalomaniac psychopath, and suffered from the same delusions as Hitler suffered when he said "We only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down". It is funny how people think in terms of the previous war, just as you do. In the 2nd, they thought they had to deal with Tsarist armies, and they were wrong. Just like you are

 

Hope you will realise at last that it was not the heroic allies led by young Ronald Reagan and John Wayne that won the war, but the apparently inept sub-human slavic hordes. Who whould have guessed.

 

Soviet Force Ratios and the paradigm of the endless Soviet hordes

 

Unthinkable

 

Soviet Spies


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apartclassic #30 Posted 12 March 2020 - 10:57 AM

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View Postlevlos, on 12 March 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

Because it is tiring to argue with you while you entrench yourself behind stereotypes and half-baked wishful ideas that date about 40-50 years and are the racist product of German post-war propaganda, I will direct you to some links. You will notice that the Soviet spies were aware of everything that was happening, right ? Operation Unthinkable for instance was on Stalin's desk well before it could have started being implemented.

 

General Patton who said

“We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore, their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons draw by beaten up old hoses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them... Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives.”

 

Of course, Patton was a megalomaniac psychopath, and suffered from the same delusions as Hitler suffered when he said "We only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down". It is funny how people think in terms of the previous war, just as you do. In the 2nd, they thought they had to deal with Tsarist armies, and they were wrong. Just like you are

 

Hope you will realise at last that it was not the heroic allies led by young Ronald Reagan and John Wayne that won the war, but the apparently inept sub-human slavic hordes. Who whould have guessed.

 

Soviet Force Ratios and the paradigm of the endless Soviet hordes

 

Unthinkable

 

Soviet Spies

 

Brilliant. And I agree, the entrechment is real, I just don't feel like going on like it is - because it feels like arguing with Nyueng Bao ( *wink wink* let's throw an obscure book reference here, shall we).

 

I've recently went through Beevor's 'The Second World War'. I enjoyed it quite a lot, despite the horrible translation (and I shudder to think that the translation was actually good, but the original writer... nah, it was the translator's fault, I'm sure). The most striking thing for me is that for the very first time I was confronted with the idea that the victory in this war - on all fronts - was not due to the superior qualities of American, British, French, Soviet etc etc political and military leaders. On the contrary, 'we' have won despite the shocking defficiencies of our commanders. I have never been presented with such a neutral view on the follies of Patton, McArthur, King, Stalin, Zhukov, Churchill, Montgomery, Stillwell and so many others. All their egomany, all their political games, all their wishful thinking and blindness to uncomfortable facts, was luckily offset by the effort of nations who were working in factories and on the fields, and the deaths of thousands of soldiers all over the globe. The Germans also had their own share of human hubris and stupidity, sure, but that's a tale we have been told for a long time. I am amazed 'we' have won, because given the amount of personal vices at play, it seems more and more like a miracle. That is why I am accenting Stalin's advantages so much, and Soviet army and commanders prowess too. Had the history been created by leaders only, I am really thinking WW2 would have ended in a very different way. Luckily, both sides made the mistakes, and luckily, 'our' side was able to commit less mistakes than 'their' side. To drop another book reference, both sides were equally tenacious, both sides were equally unrelenting, but 'we' managed to do it for a little more time and in a little bigger scale than the enemy - even though our glorified commanders did almost everything they could to make us lose. It's a very sobering thought, and one that forced me to reevaluate a lot of the myths I believed in.


Edited by apartclassic, 12 March 2020 - 10:58 AM.

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levlos #31 Posted 12 March 2020 - 12:04 PM

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If you feel horrified by the sheer stupidity of the wartime leaders, I beg you not to read any account of ww1 generalship. It is more depressing than anything.

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levlos #32 Posted 12 March 2020 - 12:28 PM

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View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 11 March 2020 - 07:54 PM, said:

[...]

USA didn't enter IIWW to save the World from Total Evil, but to win and establish USA dominance. French and British colonial empires collapsed, Germany lost. Two superpowers emerged: Soviet Union and USA.

 

So having industrial supremacy, backed up by UK (kinda hard to invade), having Soviet Navy behind Danish Straits, USA would fight Soviets till the very end - Soviet Union crumbling. With far more reasonable approach to politics, they could manage to achieve what Nazis didn't. (italics mine)

[...]

 

My body and mind shiver when I read those lines.

 

Yes, obviously, the US attacked the Germans in 1939 in order to establish a new World Order. World dominance was their goal, helped by the LizardFolk, the Free-Masons and other secret societes which you must be aware of -the info exists on the internet, just like the ideas you mention -it is incredible what you can find the net, so many hidden truths that the illuminati do not want us to be aware of. Like the water engine, or the perpetual motion motor. Or the Moon Spaceship.

 

Other people will have us doubt that the US oligarchy still had to sell the concept to their swining american masses that they fight for an idea, a stupid thing like freedom, or an inept war against evil. You know, stupid things people are made to believe are worth dying for. Or you could just thell them "you will not be home by next Christmas, Johnny Boy, because you are donating your life to build a New World Order Not Even The Nazis Could Hope To Achieve". But no, people have to be convinced they fight for justice, freedom, for the Heimat, and all that crap. Ungrateful lot, I tell you. It is the US entry in the European war in 1936 that helped make the European Colonial Empires crumble. Had not that stupid Monroe guy intervened, the US would not have liberated China in 1935, India in 1928, Africa in the early 20th Century, and ultimately annexed the United Kingdom in 1919, founding in one fell swoop the United States Of The Word in place of that useless League of Nations and United Nations.

 

Wait, wait, I feel like there is a small thorn in my side, a slight annoyance somewhere. Could it be... reality ?


Edited by levlos, 12 March 2020 - 09:07 PM.

- You can't shoot me! I have a very low threshold of death. My doctor says I can't have bullets enter my body at any time.-

- Handle these capsules with care. Dr. Noah's bacillus is highly contagious. This germ, when distributed in the atmosphere will make all women beautiful and destroy all men over 4'6."-

ApartClassic - 'may all your certainly illegitimate progeny suffer pox or at least perpetual flu'


RoyalFlyingCorps #33 Posted 12 March 2020 - 12:40 PM

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The UK wasn’t “kinda of hard to invade” since the invasion was by invitation.  “Overpaid, over-sexed and over here”, as the Britons who weren’t seduced or seduceable by nylon stocking and chocolate said at the time.

Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 12 March 2020 - 12:41 PM.


jakub_czyli_ja #34 Posted 13 March 2020 - 03:48 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 12 March 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:

Because it is tiring to argue with you while you entrench yourself behind stereotypes and half-baked wishful ideas that date about 40-50 years and are the racist product of German post-war propaganda, I will direct you to some links. You will notice that the Soviet spies were aware of everything that was happening, right ? Operation Unthinkable for instance was on Stalin's desk well before it could have started being implemented.

Lol.

I'm the one behind stereotypes and half baked ideas.

 

Like giving an overwhelming number of 400 divisions.

Checking Soviet and Allied divisions manpower and realizing that 2 or 3 Soviet divisions were equivalent of single Allied one is hiding behind stereotypes?

 

Block Quote

Of course, Patton was a megalomaniac psychopath, and suffered from the same delusions as Hitler suffered when he said "We only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down". It is funny how people think in terms of the previous war, just as you do. In the 2nd, they thought they had to deal with Tsarist armies, and they were wrong. Just like you are

Still Patton was one of the most effective Allied commander (if not the most), and was right about rotten structure - greetings for advancing Wehrmacht in 1941 didn't come out of the blue. Soviets worked really hard to be hatred, and to take away any alternatives from people. Germans could be  such alternative, but turned out to be even worse.

ROA was a step in right direction, but way too little and too late.

 

And thanks for putting links that prove my point:

Where we can read:
 

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 A 2:1 advantage is significant, but falls short of the 3:1 force ratio that is generally regarded as necessary for attacking forces

Somehow 2:1 seems like a ratio that Soviets outnumbered Allies in 1945, and this is what I claim: would be able to achieve local advantages for local incursions, but too few to support all-out offensive, especially with broken supply lines.

And more important - after 4 years of blood bath, with little regard about loses, Soviets were close to depleting their manpower pool - already women and children were working in factories and in agriculture.

Conscription of another batches from male population could mean a collapse of economy and loss of ability to sustain war effort.

 

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And?

At the end of IIWW Britons couldn't do anything on their own, especially something like attacking Soviets. They would need USA approval and cooperation, and they didn't get that, because USA needed Soviet help in defeating Japan.

Avoiding a million US combat loses in Japan was more important than losing US troops in war with Soviet Union helping Britons. Pretty reasonable (unless you happened to be in Soviet zone).

 

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Good for Soviets.

This may be the reason that Soviets didn't attack Allies - they knew a lot about A-bomb.

 

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 Hope you will realise at last that it was not the heroic allies led by young Ronald Reagan and John Wayne that won the war, but the apparently inept sub-human slavic hordes. Who whould have guessed.

To be precise: Soviets backed up by USA industry.

 

 



jakub_czyli_ja #35 Posted 13 March 2020 - 04:03 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 12 March 2020 - 12:28 PM, said:

My body and mind shiver when I read those lines.

 

Yes, obviously, the US attacked the Germans in 1939 in order to establish a new World Order. World dominance was their goal, helped by the LizardFolk, the Free-Masons and other secret societes which you must be aware of -the info exists on the internet, just like the ideas you mention -it is incredible what you can find the net, so many hidden truths that the illuminati do not want us to be aware of. Like the water engine, or the perpetual motion motor. Or the Moon Spaceship.

 

Other people will have us doubt that the US oligarchy still had to sell the concept to their swining american masses that they fight for an idea, a stupid thing like freedom, or an inept war against evil. You know, stupid things people are made to believe are worth dying for. Or you could just thell them "you will not be home by next Christmas, Johnny Boy, because you are donating your life to build a New World Order Not Even The Nazis Could Hope To Achieve". But no, people have to be convinced they fight for justice, freedom, for the Heimat, and all that crap. Ungrateful lot, I tell you. It is the US entry in the European war in 1936 that helped make the European Colonial Empires crumble. Had not that stupid Monroe guy intervened, the US would not have liberated China in 1935, India in 1928, Africa in the early 20th Century, and ultimately annexed the United Kingdom in 1919, founding in one fell swoop the United States Of The Word in place of that useless League of Nations and United Nations.

This is called argumentum ad absurdum, and usually means that you have no arguments.

Finally you could start to read what I write, not your delusions.

Check again: I wrote that US entered the war, not started it. This is a major difference.

And yes, government needs to sell idea of dying to masses, that is why Pearl Harbour attack happened - US intelligence broke Japan codes and knew about plans. Only FDR need something that will make US citizens willing to break isolationism and go to war. Have you heard about US occupying Iceland? Have you heard when did it happen?

 

Crumbling European colonial empires didn't happen for crumbling European colonial empires' sake, but to enable USA to become world superpower.

Otherwise, in case of winning the war, Germany and Japan would become superpowers, which somehow wasn't a great idea from USA point of view.

 

Block Quote

 Wait, wait, I feel like there is a small thorn in my side, a slight annoyance somewhere. Could it be... reality ?

 I think it may be some deficiency with your nervous system.



zen_monk_ #36 Posted 13 March 2020 - 05:43 PM

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levlos #37 Posted 13 March 2020 - 06:38 PM

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Yes, I give up.

 

It is not that he confuses the quotes between Patton and Hitler, it is that there is no post-processing of information. As they say "a little knowledge is worse than none".


- You can't shoot me! I have a very low threshold of death. My doctor says I can't have bullets enter my body at any time.-

- Handle these capsules with care. Dr. Noah's bacillus is highly contagious. This germ, when distributed in the atmosphere will make all women beautiful and destroy all men over 4'6."-

ApartClassic - 'may all your certainly illegitimate progeny suffer pox or at least perpetual flu'


jakub_czyli_ja #38 Posted 13 March 2020 - 08:16 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 13 March 2020 - 06:38 PM, said:

Yes, I give up.

 

It is not that he confuses the quotes between Patton and Hitler, it is that there is no post-processing of information. As they say "a little knowledge is worse than none".

For me - great.

Again you've show that you don't read what I wrote, but you discuss with your own delusions - where did I write anything about any quote?

And it's really funny, that you didn't manage to answer any of my questions, when I try to dig into your propaganda.

 

 






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