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Time to do something about tier 10 bombers


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Merkwuerdigliebe #1 Posted 06 April 2020 - 01:15 PM

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Enough said in the title. I don't like WG's massive nerf typical policy, but simply balance them by not letting a specialized one join a battle without another one on the other side would be an idea. 

If i then get a noob on my side and a very good player on the other, peace.

What u people think?

 



CheefCoach #2 Posted 06 April 2020 - 01:35 PM

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That is general problem with all WG games, and it probably won't be fixed any time soon. We should get karma system back, and that will fix MM a little bit. 

 

More pressing, and easier to fix thing, is daily missions that have to be done in period I. I think that reforming daily missions should be first priority, so it would encourage veteran players to play more actively. 


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apartclassic #3 Posted 06 April 2020 - 03:08 PM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 06 April 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

That is general problem with all WG games, and it probably won't be fixed any time soon. We should get karma system back, and that will fix MM a little bit. 

 

More pressing, and easier to fix thing, is daily missions that have to be done in period I. I think that reforming daily missions should be first priority, so it would encourage veteran players to play more actively. 

 

I would agree here. Daily missions are the reason pushing veterans into sealclubbing territory; they are also misconstrued, with most of them being 'daily' only by definition (usually taking more than one day to do), plus they do not differentiate between period 1 and period 3. Bomber 'issue' is rather restricted to high tiers, affecting a rather small minority of the players; dailies are much broader, and have an indirect impact (veterans like Cheef or me pushed down to play period 1, e.g. to get 25 thousand base xp, inevitably meet and gank newbies). That is not to say I think bombers are fine, because they are not, both by their stats and by the way they are played (in anchored flights most often).


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atlasapl #4 Posted 06 April 2020 - 06:10 PM

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We have all talked about this so many times. No point making new threads on it because I don't think anybody is listening.

The bomber issue at tier 10 is simply the specialised bomber coming in at tree top level. If it stays higher up where it should be its easier to manage. Not easy, but easier. Like I have said before, have a minimum altitude for dropping bombs. Below that and the bombs wont drop.

Having a specialised plane on the other team is not in itself an issue. Its something to be aware of, but it does not guarantee a win for the other team.

As for daily missions, I think we all agree on that. Its a right ball ache. I can't be bothered as I really don't like playing tier 4 or lower. I have a t4 I-16 (l) which I am slowly getting my flying raider badges in for the vampire missions. Plus as has been stated by others, the structure of the missions is not exactly helping.

Other that that, its tier 6 and 8 right now, with an emphasis on 6. Purely as I am enjoying that tier right now.

GoldKnight #5 Posted 07 April 2020 - 01:15 AM

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Having a bomber on 1 side isn't a guarantee of victory ONLY when WG puts useless bots vs super ones. When i talk about useless bots, i mean those who keep suiciding over a base to stop the cap (if ppl has a clue about the game they should have already noticed it). About the super ones, instead, just check bases insta turned by bots or defended by a single one versus entire army of enemy ones...

But 90/95% of the games where u have a spec bomber, with fingers, and other side has no bomber or non spec one, u can be sure the side with the spec bomber will win. Only few maps allow for a real counter on the bomber, most just gives full advantage to ground pounders.


The problem of the bombers, or better the t10 ones, is the high speed, combined with the incredible fire power of the rear gunners (apart they never ovearheat, so u can just shoot and shoot, also never misses) and the fast rld and power of ordinance which lead to turn a base in few seconds.

Lower the speed, set an overheat on the rear gunner, increase the rld time, reduce dmg of the rear gunner weap.
I don't say to do all togheter, but those are all different solutions to balance those planes.

Ppl talking about countering a bomber or crying about the altitude, are the same i just insta delete behind my tail when i use one of those...
U can kill a bomber, u can counter them, but the effort u need to pull it down is so high that, most of the time, lead anyway to a loss.

Also, u kill a bomber, it is not an easy task neither a fast one, meanwhile the base are getting contested. Same second the bomber spawn back he's full speed passing the base and turning it, before u can spot and react to it.

Just check the pp and ranks t10 bombers have in few minutes of the game, then check other classes... U can see how those planes insta gain ranks and pp, also the amount/time.
Even bad players get decent amount of pp/rank on those planes. They will never be efficient like a good player, but u see the enourmous difference between the use of a bomber and any other class.


Bombers on t10 MUST be nerfed, useless to say anything different, they are OP and just game breakers.
I have both fully specced with minimum 10 points skill crew, i join a game, as said before, i have ~95% chance to win a game when in one of those, none of the other planes gives such security.

 

PS. was near to forget, i meet different ppl in game, some of the names are "well known" and, strangely, all of those ppl used GAA when they were OP af before and now using only bombers, for the same reason. Most of those ppl can win only using such planes, wonder why? For sure not cos these ppl are particularly good on them, but just cos bombers are WAY above the level of other planes, exactly like GAA were in past nothing new nothing different. 

Well, in effect now is even worst, bombers are way faster, ordinance and rear guns are even worst than were in GAAs. 

 


Edited by GoldKnight, 07 April 2020 - 01:27 AM.


prawiejakzywiec666 #6 Posted 07 April 2020 - 05:59 AM

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Tier X bombers are OP - it is true. There are players who can really push them to the limits. If you add up map awareness and a decent flightmate it is really hard to beat that kind of a team. 

Furthermore on X tier you have plenty of players completely without a clue of what and where needs to be done on the map. 

There were plenty of ideas mentioned - now WG needs to rethink the whole idea of bombers on high tiers.


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InVictuS_ShaDoW #7 Posted 07 April 2020 - 06:37 AM

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Tier X bombers are too strong.
And I suggest you return to increasing the time of rebirth with each shooting down or special crash of the plane.

CheefCoach #8 Posted 07 April 2020 - 07:03 AM

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There isn't such thing as useless bots and super bots, all bots are the same! 

 

Very few players are playing tier 10 bombers, and those who are doing them, they are doing them very well. And those are all the good players, bcs. good ones get tier 10 first. So it is hard to say that planes are OP. Specializing any plane can make it little OP. 

 

Su 10 is pretty crappy in my opinion. EF 131 can be good when RNG is good, but it can also be frustrating. 


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prawiejakzywiec666 #9 Posted 07 April 2020 - 09:29 AM

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Both are OP CheefCoach. If a person like me can easily "produce" 3 tokens daily (dolittle, grom, lang) just by flying once EF131 or SU10 - there is sth wrong.

I prefer EF131 because of the speed, agility and the reload time but when one see what can be done using SU10 (SPIDER, Mitragyn or other pro players) one has to realize that in some circumstaces it is probably even better than EF131.

To sum up - the increased spawn time after each kill / suicide is a very good starting point.

Kind regards


Edited by prawiejakzywiec666, 07 April 2020 - 09:32 AM.

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houghtonbee #10 Posted 07 April 2020 - 11:06 AM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 07 April 2020 - 08:03 AM, said:

There isn't such thing as useless bots and super bots, all bots are the same! 

 

 

 

So why are some bots getting sub 1k pp scores in battles (before the 1k pp end of battle boost) while others get 6k pp or more?



GonerNL #11 Posted 07 April 2020 - 11:52 AM

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Indeed.

That is the one thing that MM actually could and should balance, but even that doesn't work. The difference between bots is unbelievable.

When you play late, you sometimes get all bot battles and even then you get 800-99 or 99-800 battles. How, if all bots are the same ?

 



CheefCoach #12 Posted 07 April 2020 - 12:16 PM

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View Posthoughtonbee, on 07 April 2020 - 12:06 PM, said:

 

So why are some bots getting sub 1k pp scores in battles (before the 1k pp end of battle boost) while others get 6k pp or more?

Because humans are stooping them, or they have bad luck.


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CheefCoach #13 Posted 07 April 2020 - 12:25 PM

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View Postprawiejakzywiec666, on 07 April 2020 - 10:29 AM, said:

Both are OP CheefCoach. If a person like me can easily "produce" 3 tokens daily (dolittle, grom, lang) just by flying once EF131 or SU10 - there is sth wrong.

 

You have 72,82% of win rate and not to start with medal counts. Sorry, but you aren't average player, you are in top league. The planes need to be calibrated for average Joe.

 

I consider myself little bit above the average, and I can't get even close to such results in Su 10. In EF 131 I have, but rarely. Neither of them is specialized yet. 


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levlos #14 Posted 07 April 2020 - 12:35 PM

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View Postprawiejakzywiec666, on 07 April 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

Both are OP CheefCoach. If a person like me can easily "produce" 3 tokens daily (dolittle, grom, lang) just by flying once EF131 or SU10 - there is sth wrong.

I prefer EF131 because of the speed, agility and the reload time but when one see what can be done using SU10 (SPIDER, Mitragyn or other pro players) one has to realize that in some circumstaces it is probably even better than EF131.

To sum up - the increased spawn time after each kill / suicide is a very good starting point.

Kind regards

 

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GoldKnight #15 Posted 07 April 2020 - 12:38 PM

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Bots are not the same, plz... Stop to say such bs. ACE bots are there, not the only one to have noticed it. 

The thing is just simply stupid, cos the difference tru those bots is definitely too wide and makes game absolutely unbalanced. 

 

I'm one of those who hates bombers as they are now, but still has both of them specced cos i know they are insanely OP. 

A t10 bomber can one pass bases, but the su10 is definitely above the ef131.

Su10 have speed, manuev, fire power (front and back) and ordinance to break a game. I did met different players, alone or in flight, and whenever i was using the su10, doesn't matter the opponent, i gave a bad day to those ppl. Happened to lose, but the difficulty for those ppl was insane.

 

I know i can give a bad day with many planes, but the bombers are just a fresh walk... I don't even need to focus too much. They are so damn good that, as said before, even pretty bad players can do good on it, this says alot by itself

 

PS. Increased spawn time is not going to solve anything, bombers can run away, kill other planes on the way and make those planes increase the respawn instead. 

At the point those t10 bombers are, it is easier they kill something and not viceversa.

In a single sortie i removed 3 or 4 planes few days ago... Bots and humans, bots are not efficients to kill bombers, just absolutely annoying, unless u are totally distracted or happens to find the respawn of an heavy just behind. Most of the time u can delete anykind of bot plane before this makes any sensible damage. For humans, depend, most of them has no clue how to deal with bombers, the few who has, sometimes, have no sufficient hp or right plane to deal with them


Edited by GoldKnight, 07 April 2020 - 12:44 PM.


CheefCoach #16 Posted 07 April 2020 - 01:06 PM

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Superbots are myth and excuse for bad players not to take responsibility for losing the battles. As bots should simulate the humans, they should have bad games and good games, but both teams are having as similar bots as possible. 

 

There is reason why some players have 60-70 % of win rate, and other are in 40-50 % bracket. If bots were determine force, everybody will have around 50 % of win rate. 

 

Fighter and multirole bots are programmed to go for airbases. If human with spec yak or spitfire park in such airbase, neither of those bots will have good day. 

 

Lets talk about garrison. When it is red it takes 120 points to cap. There is two medium armored target with 30 points each, and several targets with 20 points. Math is saying that it takes 5 gt to cap that sector. EF 131 have 4 bombs. One pass taking isn't realistic, two passes it is. 


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prawiejakzywiec666 #17 Posted 07 April 2020 - 01:14 PM

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One pass plus a turret kill of a light fighter (40 cap points).

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levlos #18 Posted 07 April 2020 - 02:37 PM

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View PostGoldKnight, on 07 April 2020 - 02:38 PM, said:

Bots are not the same, plz... Stop to say such bs. ACE bots are there, not the only one to have noticed it. 

The thing is just simply stupid, cos the difference tru those bots is definitely too wide and makes game absolutely unbalanced. 

 

I'm one of those who hates bombers as they are now, but still has both of them specced cos i know they are insanely OP. 

A t10 bomber can one pass bases, but the su10 is definitely above the ef131.

Su10 have speed, manuev, fire power (front and back) and ordinance to break a game. I did met different players, alone or in flight, and whenever i was using the su10, doesn't matter the opponent, i gave a bad day to those ppl. Happened to lose, but the difficulty for those ppl was insane.

 

I know i can give a bad day with many planes, but the bombers are just a fresh walk... I don't even need to focus too much. They are so damn good that, as said before, even pretty bad players can do good on it, this says alot by itself

 

PS. Increased spawn time is not going to solve anything, bombers can run away, kill other planes on the way and make those planes increase the respawn instead. 

At the point those t10 bombers are, it is easier they kill something and not viceversa.

In a single sortie i removed 3 or 4 planes few days ago... Bots and humans, bots are not efficients to kill bombers, just absolutely annoying, unless u are totally distracted or happens to find the respawn of an heavy just behind. Most of the time u can delete anykind of bot plane before this makes any sensible damage. For humans, depend, most of them has no clue how to deal with bombers, the few who has, sometimes, have no sufficient hp or right plane to deal with them

 

Ace bots do not exist: their perfomance is generated by a complex array of probabilities, in-game dynamics and orders that human players give them. A bot can become an ace if you escort it, and if you send it/ goes over a sector alone, it will die without doing anything. Making up imaginary differences will not help solve the issue, their scripts are crystal-clear and they do the same things everytime on the same map -they even screw up their path-finding on the mountain maps the same way every time.

 

So, well, yes, Tier X are too strong. What do you propose then to nerf them ? I see you are not proposing anything and just deny respawning time would be useless. I disagree: respawn time increase for bombers  (+1 respawn cycle) would be good and simple -an immediate clear step (bombers have longer range, so they come from further away, hence their longer time to re-appear on the battlefield). We should need to go deeper. I propose the following:
1- decrease by half the ability to deal critical damage from the tail gunners. 50 (gunner skill)+10+10 % is way too much.

2- Perhaps also remove the module with special ammo from the rear gunner from OP bombers. They count on their speed to evade interception, not tail gunners.

3- Decrease speed and boosting time

4- Sligthly decrease HP ?

5- The EF-131 that the Soviets kept on developping (with OKB-1 design bureau) used a twin 13mm MG tail turret. Up to october 1947, there was no placing any 20mm in the gun turret -the Ju 388 used the twin MG turret alright. We might remove the 20mm in the game altogether or replace it with a less modern version, such as the 20mm MG 151/20. The aircraft was deemed too fast to hamper it with a bloody gattling in the tail.

6- Soviet tail gun's range might be reduced, and/or the scattering increased.

7- reduce damage from large 1 ton bombs ? EF-131 carried two 1 ton bombs, not four.

8- Su-10 carried 3 tons of bombs, that is 6x500kg bombs, not 8 as they do now. Why not use for them and for the EF-131 the real bomb load ?

 


Edited by levlos, 07 April 2020 - 02:38 PM.

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GoldKnight #19 Posted 07 April 2020 - 11:15 PM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 07 April 2020 - 02:06 PM, said:

Superbots are myth and excuse for bad players not to take responsibility for losing the battles. As bots should simulate the humans, they should have bad games and good games, but both teams are having as similar bots as possible. 

 

There is reason why some players have 60-70 % of win rate, and other are in 40-50 % bracket. If bots were determine force, everybody will have around 50 % of win rate. 

 

Fighter and multirole bots are programmed to go for airbases. If human with spec yak or spitfire park in such airbase, neither of those bots will have good day. 

 

Lets talk about garrison. When it is red it takes 120 points to cap. There is two medium armored target with 30 points each, and several targets with 20 points. Math is saying that it takes 5 gt to cap that sector. EF 131 have 4 bombs. One pass taking isn't realistic, two passes it is. 

 

Infact u are talking with the wrong person about being bad player ;)

Doesn't care what WG says, the facts are another one, and the games shows alot what i'm talking about.

But hey, if u want to believe to a developer which hides 90% of infos, gl to you :)

 

View Postlevlos, on 07 April 2020 - 03:37 PM, said:

 

Ace bots do not exist: their perfomance is generated by a complex array of probabilities, in-game dynamics and orders that human players give them. A bot can become an ace if you escort it, and if you send it/ goes over a sector alone, it will die without doing anything. Making up imaginary differences will not help solve the issue, their scripts are crystal-clear and they do the same things everytime on the same map -they even screw up their path-finding on the mountain maps the same way every time.

 

So, well, yes, Tier X are too strong. What do you propose then to nerf them ? I see you are not proposing anything and just deny respawning time would be useless. I disagree: respawn time increase for bombers  (+1 respawn cycle) would be good and simple -an immediate clear step (bombers have longer range, so they come from further away, hence their longer time to re-appear on the battlefield). We should need to go deeper. I propose the following:
1- decrease by half the ability to deal critical damage from the tail gunners. 50 (gunner skill)+10+10 % is way too much.

2- Perhaps also remove the module with special ammo from the rear gunner from OP bombers. They count on their speed to evade interception, not tail gunners.

3- Decrease speed and boosting time

4- Sligthly decrease HP ?

5- The EF-131 that the Soviets kept on developping (with OKB-1 design bureau) used a twin 13mm MG tail turret. Up to october 1947, there was no placing any 20mm in the gun turret -the Ju 388 used the twin MG turret alright. We might remove the 20mm in the game altogether or replace it with a less modern version, such as the 20mm MG 151/20. The aircraft was deemed too fast to hamper it with a bloody gattling in the tail.

6- Soviet tail gun's range might be reduced, and/or the scattering increased.

7- reduce damage from large 1 ton bombs ? EF-131 carried two 1 ton bombs, not four.

8- Su-10 carried 3 tons of bombs, that is 6x500kg bombs, not 8 as they do now. Why not use for them and for the EF-131 the real bomb load ?

 

 

Ehm, maybe u should read completely my previous posts, cos i already proposed solutions to nerf in good way, without absolutely delete, bombers.

But i think that reading completely a post is too much.

 

The respawn increase is absolutely the worst idea, as bomber u are going to be effected less by this situation, while other classes are going to suffer more. When i use bomber i know that i have a rld time, i know that once i'm over a base, i gonna insta cap it 99% of the time, as fighter/mr/hf i know that i need time for it, cos i need atleast 3 or 4 kills and i need to don't suffer on hit regs or, how mitragyn calls it, christmas tree. That nice situation where u shoot an enemy or ADA plane and u just light it like a christmas tree, but do not do any damage at all... Bombers do not suffer about it at all, neither from gt neither from rear gunner dmg... So gl on increasing respawn time per death, u are going to just raise even more the power of those bombers...

 

As i said, just read above and u find where bombers need to be nerfed, and from these u can even nerf a couple of areas and still keep bombers a good variable, without being OP anymore. For sure, can't nerf all the areas i have pointed, other u can just trash em, like they trashed pancake, ta152 and many other planes in past.

 

i quote my other post, since i see ppl misses the BIGGEST area of interest to reduce bomber's excessive power

Quote

Lower the speed, set an overheat on the rear guns, increase the rld time, reduce dmg of the rear gun weap.
I don't say to do all togheter, but those are all different solutions to balance those planes.

 


Edited by GoldKnight, 07 April 2020 - 11:16 PM.


CheefCoach #20 Posted 07 April 2020 - 11:37 PM

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It is really boring to fly with bombers while they are reloading, as it is; increasing reload time will kill desire to fly them, unless their speed get reduced (so you can reload while moving to next sector). 

Rear guns are needed to defend from heavy fighters, unless there are other ways to avoid them (like reduce visibility). 

Speed is way to fast. 

There should be blockade on low altitude bomb drops. Increase optimal attitude and no bomb drop option below that. Or just kill the speed and climb on low altitude (but that should be done to all class, like it was before 2.0). 

 

And the best way to nerf the bombers is to increase the number of heavy fighters in the teams, and decrease the number of bombers. 

 

But...

Not only tier 10 bombers are OP. T4 or T5 German bombers are OP as well. 

 

And the biggest problem are players. Tier 10 bombers players are often pros, and teams have very few human players. That is leading us to damn daily mission system. That system is dragging players down to lower tiers! Good player who would play tier 10s are forced to play tier 4s in order to finish daily mission. 

 

 


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