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Time to do something about tier 10 bombers


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Merkwuerdigliebe #21 Posted 08 April 2020 - 05:53 AM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 07 April 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

 

 

And the best way to nerf the bombers is to increase the number of heavy fighters in the teams, and decrease the number of bombers. 

 

 

 

So basically you're suggesting to unbalance MM in order to balance it? Funny.

Put more heavies in the game and you'll kill light fighters. Bombers are about 2 per team, and seems fair to me. Didn't see yet huge balbos of SU10s flying over my head in V formation (a specced one is largely enough almost everytime), so reduce them to...? one every two games? 

 

My quick suggestion to WG: remove spec config for tier 8+ bombers. I ask you, bomber owners, would it be enough to bring them back to world of (not OP) warplanes or shall it need some more (nerfing) efforts?


Edited by Merkwuerdigliebe, 08 April 2020 - 05:56 AM.


Tempelhof__ #22 Posted 08 April 2020 - 06:21 AM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 07 April 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

It is really boring to fly with bombers

agree

View PostCheefCoach, on 07 April 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

There should be blockade on low altitude bomb drops. Increase optimal attitude and no bomb drop option below that. 

good Idea

View PostCheefCoach, on 07 April 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

And the best way to nerf the bombers is to increase the number of heavy fighters in the teams, and decrease the number of bombers. 

 

And the biggest problem are players. Tier 10 bombers players are often pros, and teams have very few human players. That is leading us to damn daily mission system. That system is dragging players down to lower tiers! Good player who would play tier 10s are forced to play tier 4s in order to finish daily mission.

I completely disagree here, as you can open the next thread named "Time to do something against Tier X Heavies"

Same is with good players flying Low Tier instead of Tier X

Nobody is "forced" to fly low Tiers for daily mission.

Personally i dont care much about those dailys.

 

True, Bombers on Tier 10 are not balanced.

But it seems more a problem with Players Egos. They want to win all the time.

Now we have statpadding Tier 10 wannabe Heroes as a counterpart of Lowtier Sealclubbers.

@Cheefcoach: Whenever you want to fly Tier X Heavy, let me know if you see me online.

@ Everyone : Same offer to everyone - im ready for Tier X Heavies, pm me anytime you see me online.

 


Edited by 0berhessen, 08 April 2020 - 06:27 AM.

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CheefCoach #23 Posted 08 April 2020 - 07:20 AM

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Don't misquote me:

 

Block Quote

 It is really boring to fly with bombers while they are reloading

 

Bombers are only boring when they are reloading, and they are fun when they are dropping the bombs. 

 

MM is having 2 heavies to counter 2 bombers. If there is greater heavy to bomber ratio (and there is one in escort mode), bombers are more countered. MM can't be unbalanced if both teams are having same class composition. 

 

All German bombers are imbalanced in a way. Only reason why you are noticing tier 10 is because players are OP there!

It takes much more skill to fly them low, and that is making big difference between OP and rest of players. 


Edited by CheefCoach, 08 April 2020 - 07:22 AM.

Nothing interesting to write. 

GonerNL #24 Posted 08 April 2020 - 07:59 AM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 08 April 2020 - 08:20 AM, said:

MM is having 2 heavies to counter 2 bombers. 

 

Problem is that on some tiers you don't have a chance against those heavies ...

I was flying my brand-new B-17G on the NA server yesterday. First game, bot Ki-102  headhunts me whole battle - ignoring a far more dangerous & productive bot (!) Do-217 and kills me twice. Next battle, bot Me-410 headhunts me and kills me 3 times. Jeez, what fun flying bombers ...



Siagor #25 Posted 08 April 2020 - 08:27 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 08 April 2020 - 08:59 AM, said:

 Jeez, what fun flying bombers ...

 

There are tiers where the bombers indeed are an easy prey for good HF. They are not extremely fun, nor anyone asks for them to be nerfed.

 

If you look carefully at the thread title, you'll see "Tier 10" there. :teethhappy:
 


Edited by zen_monk_, 08 April 2020 - 10:57 AM.


Tempelhof__ #26 Posted 08 April 2020 - 08:40 AM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 08 April 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

Don't misquote me:

Sorry for missquoting, but that was intentional - i tried them and i find them boring.

Why? Lets stay on Tier 10:

German Tier 10 Bomber, game starts - boost to a close sector, drop load, boost to next sector. Watch minimap enemy Heavy close - check teamlist, its a bot - boost and climb, press T reargunner boom boom boom, Heavy looses lots of structure points and turns away, meanwhile bombs are reloaded, check for the closest sector, drop load...

boost here drop load, boost there drop load, evade with speed, climb as high as possible - boring...

Maybe if there is human Heavies - but then?

Human heavy on Bombers tail - Bomber on 4800 m deep red colour, Heavy boosts up, Bomber is wondering how, Heavy shoots: Lots of critical hits, Reargunner hits Heavy maybe shoots him down, if so Heavy respawns and gets the weakened Bomber in the next run.

Tier 10 (maybe 9 too i don´t know) is the only Tier where, as a Bomber, you have major influence on the battles result, all other tiers depends much more on the whole team.


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levlos #27 Posted 08 April 2020 - 08:50 AM

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View PostGoldKnight, on 08 April 2020 - 01:15 AM, said:

 

Infact u are talking with the wrong person about being bad player ;)

Doesn't care what WG says, the facts are another one, and the games shows alot what i'm talking about.

But hey, if u want to believe to a developer which hides 90% of infos, gl to you :)

 

 

Ehm, maybe u should read completely my previous posts, cos i already proposed solutions to nerf in good way, without absolutely delete, bombers.

But i think that reading completely a post is too much.

 

The respawn increase is absolutely the worst idea, as bomber u are going to be effected less by this situation, while other classes are going to suffer more.  [...]

 

 

Oh I remember you,

 

You are the player who started insulting me when I shot down twice your team-mate mytragyn. Then you went on a weird rant about being a great player in the private chat, and about rivers of salt I was pouring everywhere. Oh yes, I got the screenshot here. I did not realize I was talking to the Oswald Boelcke of the Galactic server, my humble apologies. Now of course, you will not remember me, because I am just one of the many players you are abusing when flying in top tiers, how can you remember them all, right ? Back to topic now.

 

I will pass on the amusing irony of you proposing ways to nerf the bomber you choose to passably fly around harvesting boring wins in your overwhelming team. After all, if a plane is so OP, it becomes boring to play, no ? So if it is boring, people are bored playing it and stop playing it -especially in flights where almost always only bots opponents are found. That would make sense. But it does not, really, after all. There must be hidden stats on you too. GL with us fathoming you.

 

About illuminati code in WoWP: developpers are not bound by an oath of transparency: they are not open source. If you think you are entitled (hin hin oh yes you are) to know their arcane secrets and data of the game, well you are mistaken. They do not owe you crap. If you are sure there are bots on secret steroids that violate the rules and also the human players, well, it is your point to prove. The whole community is open to your bright insights -the game might "show a lot", but there are a lot of people around that are still skeptical. The only OP behaviour of bots I witness are long range kills by Yaks or fantastic rocket kills by F-94 (even a i-16 rocket-killed me yesterday, I at last felt how the victims of apartClassic felt). There yes, they are mighty. Otherwise, it feels to me that it is just an emerging outcome of a complex system based on simple scripts.

 

As for the respawn, I was proposing a bomber-time respawn time increase. Read a whole sentence please, just as I missed a previous post of yours.

 

What we simply could do instead of trying to tinker with the code of the game would be to simply apply the real stats to the tier X bombers. The EF-131 can carry only two 1-ton bombs and does not have that kind of gun on its tail, and the SU-10 carries 6 bombs instead of 8, and its guns are lower-range. So this way we avoid most of the "one-pass, one base" problem, and the bombers are more manageable as a target. I suppose this will happen when the numbers of players acquiring the bombers go down, as there must surely be some cash involved in the process.

 

Back to you, GoldThing, you are as much the problem in top tiers as the hardware involved. Your vindictiveness and rudeness should also be nerfed, without of course absolutely deleting you :) After all, we are all brothers in arms, aren't we ?


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houghtonbee #28 Posted 08 April 2020 - 09:29 AM

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Lol yeah I've seen Goldknight and his mate at tier 10, game after game one in a bomber and one in a XF90. I asked them if they dont get bored just rofl stomping every game and the salt poured forth. Wasnt even complaining (I'd been on a team with them one game and against them the next), was genuinely curious what fun they got out of 5 minute roflstomps. Almost like they had a form of guilty concious over their actions :D

CheefCoach #29 Posted 08 April 2020 - 10:00 AM

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@0berhessen  

I like to fly bombers when I am more tired, because they are relaxing. Maybe not for hours, but 1-2 battles. Ju 287 is just slower version of EF 131 with less hp, less climb rate and weaker rear gun. Bombs are the same. 

 

@Eveybody

My personal opinion is that Ju 86E, Do 17 Z and Ju 88 A are far more influential than EF 131 or Ju 287. Dropping 4 bombs as package increase the chance of one drop, one GT kill (later 2 are known to miss the target). They can fly really high, and as such not many planes can challenge them. Only reason why people don't notice them, is because there is far more players in the team and far more players are flying them. 

Notorious thing about t8-t10 is when player fly them as ILs and use force like Jedi to aim the bombs. That thing should be dealt with. Maybe with greater dispersion of the bombs on low altitude, or much higher speed and climb rate nerf. 


Edited by CheefCoach, 08 April 2020 - 10:02 AM.

Nothing interesting to write. 

levlos #30 Posted 08 April 2020 - 11:02 AM

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I think we all agree that bombers, being kind of artillery-like (WoT reference), should never set the pace of the game. They should always remain support weapons -remember in the game we are using strategic/ interdiction planes in a tactical role. German experience in 1941/42 proved it was not an optimal role. The Allies found out that too in 1940, then in 1944 as well. We kind of mix up all things in the game: plants, airbases, garissons... It is nice, but the Giulio Douhet precept never worked: single bombers must be dead meat.

 

We do not yet have ground-to-air missiles in tiers IX or X (perhaps we should introduce a couple of Rheintochters or Wasserfall to cool down the single bombers), so nerfing them so that they cannot steal the show is the only way to get players flowing back to the top tiers. Grinding (with money, preferably) to the top tiers in the lifeline of WoWP: by letting the top tiers rot, they litteraly bomb themselves on the foot.


- You can't shoot me! I have a very low threshold of death. My doctor says I can't have bullets enter my body at any time.-

- Handle these capsules with care. Dr. Noah's bacillus is highly contagious. This germ, when distributed in the atmosphere will make all women beautiful and destroy all men over 4'6."-

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GonerNL #31 Posted 08 April 2020 - 11:20 AM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 08 April 2020 - 09:27 AM, said:

If you look carefully at the thread title, you'll see "Tier 10" there. :teethhappy:

 

Yeah, I know.

What tried to imply was ; can MM not counter tier X bombers with überbot headhunting heavies as on other tiers too ??

 



Siagor #32 Posted 08 April 2020 - 11:39 AM

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The thing is, tier 10 bombers are way too über for any bot heavy, almost too über even for good fully specced human HF.

 

Hence the cry for nerf.



CheefCoach #33 Posted 08 April 2020 - 12:29 PM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 08 April 2020 - 12:39 PM, said:

The thing is, tier 10 bombers are way too über for any bot heavy, almost too über even for good fully specced human HF.

 

Hence the cry for nerf.

No more than tier 4 bombers. 

 

We can do this until the develop the vaccine for COVID, and we won't get consensus. Persha have spreadsheets and they should figure this out. 


Nothing interesting to write. 

GonerNL #34 Posted 08 April 2020 - 01:22 PM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 08 April 2020 - 12:39 PM, said:

Hence the cry for nerf.

 

Don't get me wrong (again), I hate those bombers just as much as you and others. Just wondering ...



Siagor #35 Posted 08 April 2020 - 01:32 PM

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Levlos had the right idea. Give those Tier 10 bombers ordnance they actually had and rear guns they actually carried, and all will be fine with the world.

 

 

edit

Or let's bring charade to max, and give them eight nukes each. The result would be as it would be in rl, deserted tier 10 except those uber flights. Even now we are getting close.


Edited by zen_monk_, 08 April 2020 - 01:40 PM.


Merkwuerdigliebe #36 Posted 08 April 2020 - 02:00 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 08 April 2020 - 08:50 AM, said:

 

 

Your vindictiveness and rudeness should also be nerfed, without of course absolutely deleting you :) After all, we are all brothers in arms, aren't we ?

 

Sorry all for going OT, but i feel compelled to answer this

 

We definitely should. Coming from a member of a clan that few days ago declared a feud on a particular user in order to punish dunno what offence in chat, well... so much for coherence, but everyone is entitled to have his 15 minutes of popularity, innit? (i'm not contesting your right to declare feuds as a clan, i'm only discussing the good taste of it)

Said that, have fun and good luck in game (even with your feud, if it amuses you), but pls don't use this thread as an excuse to bring back personal animosities, since i asked the community about a matter of gameplay and not about being polite in chat.

 

Back IT, I've never experienced such a "bomber frustration" in low tiers as i do in tier 10, but maybe it's only me (and maybe because lately i tend to play much more in tier 8/10). I specced Mig 15 and F86 in the last week and more often than not, when a specced bomber popped up as an oppo, i felt simply useless and hopeless even if i played to win ignoring the requests of spec mission in order to cap as much bases as i can. This really ruins the game imho.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Merkwuerdigliebe, 08 April 2020 - 02:07 PM.


levlos #37 Posted 08 April 2020 - 02:12 PM

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Dear Merkwuerdigliebe,

 

I am not aware of any feud between clans, and I cannot be held responsible for the behaviour of the 40+ members of a clan I don't get to curate for. Feuds belong to the middle ages, and that is were they should remain. One particular member of the IRON clan comes to mind as able to bring back psychopatic or medieval things to the game, and I surely do not vouch for him.

 

Back to the topic, I find that the bomber gameplay and the toxic behaviour of players is directly linked. Let me explain why I find so: the bombers are so overpowered they seem to generate animosity by simply being so. Some players will simply believe they are bound to win in a tier X bomber whatever happens, even more so when in a powerful flight. Anything less than a complete rout will seem to drive them furious. That happened in half of the last few tier X games I played. All of them had tier X specialized bombers. As you read below my posts, my case is far from isolated.

 

I will admit the sample games are few -but the correlation should be explored. Align the OP planes with the rest of the aircraft, and some players with little self control and manners are bound to see their agressivity levels go down. Anything that makes the game less toxic is good for everyone.

 

As for dealing with bombers in lower tiers, I generally enjoy downing them with some pervert glee. Save the one Do-217M that flies so high as to be useless, I don't mind them at all. On the contrary, shooting bombers are one of the reasons why I like piloting heavies after all. But when you ask for advice about how to deal with a plane and the consensus is "well, mate, just keep clear, look at your feet and whistle", there is something rotten in the kingdom of you know here :)


Edited by levlos, 08 April 2020 - 02:14 PM.

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- Handle these capsules with care. Dr. Noah's bacillus is highly contagious. This germ, when distributed in the atmosphere will make all women beautiful and destroy all men over 4'6."-

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anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC #38 Posted 08 April 2020 - 02:31 PM

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As you say, bombers at lower and mid tiers are generally pretty straightforward to deal with. Its not really a problem there. Tier 9/10 is something else.

Just to be clear, my decision to not play tier 9/10 is not solely down to my dislike of the bombers there. I simply have not found a plane I enjoy enough at that level. I may re-visit the 262HGII at some point, once I learn how to play HF's properly, and go hunt some bombers.

Merkwuerdigliebe #39 Posted 08 April 2020 - 02:46 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 08 April 2020 - 02:12 PM, said:

 

Back to the topic, I find that the bomber gameplay and the toxic behaviour of players is directly linked. Let me explain why I find so: the bombers are so overpowered they seem to generate animosity by simply being so. Some players will simply believe they are bound to win in a tier X bomber whatever happens, even more so when in a powerful flight. Anything less than a complete rout will seem to drive them furious. That happened in half of the last few tier X games I played. All of them had tier X specialized bombers. As you read below my posts, my case is far from isolated.

 

I will admit the sample games are few -but the correlation should be explored. Align the OP planes with the rest of the aircraft, and some players with little self control and manners are bound to see their agressivity levels go down. Anything that makes the game less toxic is good for everyone.

 

 

 

 

You have a point, as 0berhessen had in a previous post. Since players' ego and human will of prevail everysinglef***n time is a thing that cannot be balanced by WG, they really should remove/fix ASAP those planes that allow even an average player to keep a 70+% WR by simply flyin around capping bases at turbospeed. Then if someone isn't polite and aggressive/frustrated as hell by nature, well there are some other instruments to reduce him to reason (chatban etc.) and to reduce his "bothering potential". Different solutions for different problems even if, i concede, most likely linked.


Edited by Merkwuerdigliebe, 08 April 2020 - 02:48 PM.


GoldKnight #40 Posted 08 April 2020 - 03:14 PM

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Message got cut, useless forum in mobile version... When on pc gonna paste it again

Edited by GoldKnight, 08 April 2020 - 03:49 PM.





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