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How the hell have I damaged any ground targets?


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zen_monk_ #1 Posted 11 April 2020 - 06:29 AM

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I've tried to avoid making any points for this Daily "...points for destroying ground targets" so tomorrow morning I will be given a new one, changeable. Flew a HF, very high, hunting only bombers and their escorts, all the kills and shooting done waaay up high. But still the game gave me 350 points for destroying ground targets.

 

 

It's not the first time this happened, therefore I was extremely careful not to shoot any GAA over the sector, no shooting anywhere where my shells might hit something on the ground.

 

So what made this 350 damage?  (and ruined my chance to pick two choices tomorrow)

 


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apartclassic #2 Posted 11 April 2020 - 07:22 AM

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1) Long standing thing - came miscalculates. I've frequently accomplished a 'be one of top 5 do the most damage to ground target in a battle' mission, even though I have not attacked a single one, and the battle log shows 0 damage to GTs.

 

2) Stray bullet, when you're in range. You're shooting e.g. GAA, or an ADA plane, while they are both low, you're diving - possibly some of your bullets grazed a ground target. This one is actually 'legitimate', when it happens - but when it's a situation described above, well...

 

I'm leaning towards a bug, a flaw in the coding version. It could be that the game is hyperaccurate and does the precise calculation for every single bullet - riiiiight....


Edited by apartclassic, 11 April 2020 - 07:23 AM.

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zen_monk_ #3 Posted 11 April 2020 - 07:40 AM

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Bug will also be my guess.

 

As stated, I've taken great care not to shoot anything low with ground targets in the background. Nope, all was done way up high, horizontal, even from below up. I wanted to hear some sort of "...if you destroy an enemy bomber who's just dropping bombs, game transfers to you the damage from his bombs falling at the moment of destruction" blah blah, some at least meaningful explanation, upon which I can change the targets next time.

 

 


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apartclassic #4 Posted 11 April 2020 - 08:38 AM

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You express the wish, we deliver.

 

Actually the game does separate calculations for each 'bullet', but it gets trunkated for various reasons. Base code is also infinite range for guns, with external limitations imposed after the basic calculation for hit and damage is done - only then effective and max range of a gun appears in the calculations, leading to discarding results for ranges higher than the two. The numbers are actually still there, each bullet (or rather 'burst', not to choke the computing module) has calculated trajectory, and the engine runs a check for potential hits on this line, SHOWING only the ones that later on are filtered out as 'in range', but having everything else already done. When ping and network instability is introduced into the algorithm, this 'last moment' imposition of ranges is sometimes discarded for the sake of efficiency, or just catching up with a lagging client, or the need to dynamically adjust the size of data package exchanged between server and client. Instead of the usual and proper mix of 'what was hit at what range for how much damage with what modifiers', sometimes the game has to resort to 'yes you hit, for X dmg - stop bothering me more, I'm busy right now'. Also, sometimes when the communication is 'ideal' and all the data is exchanged, server is mistakenly 'forgetting' about ranges, and takes into account all the ammo shot (because the trajectories were calculated and 'drawn' anyway, as per the code - but the limits were not employed, as per 'faulty connection' or 'a bug/mistake in code').

 

So, to put it short - when you press Fire button on your side, your client sends info about your plane in space to the server; server then calculates all your bursts, checks what was hit, THEN imposes limits and returns results adjusted for range. Sometimes however, due to either instable connection or some mistakes in the coding, the limits of ranges etc are not imposed correctly, leading the server to 'think' you are actually shooting 'lazor beams' with unlimited range (as no modifiers for max/effective range are applied, and there is no bullet travel physics in WoWP code), and counts in all the hits - regardless if they were actual, i.e. within the parameters of the guns used, or potential, i.e. within all the trajectories of all the burst shot.

 

Another thing is purely mathematical. For all calculations there's a fraction threshold, commonly known as 'rounding'. Rounding for round shot in WoWP is done again on two levels at once - in the client (to relieve the server a bit), but then verified by the server (to prevent data manipulation, aka hackzorz). When the two don't meet, you get those strange results. Two examples are most common: in your client you did a TOTAL of zero damage to ground targets, but the server knows you actually hit for some very very small amounts (because of range drop-off, that I explained above), and for the server the sum TOTAL of your damage done is not equal to zero. Server has the actual number, comprised of all those factions, but the final info displayed is rounded down to the nearest full number - in this case, zero. This is a 'total' rounding disparity. The other example is of the 'detailed' rounding disparity, where - due to uneven connection - server and client exchange data in batches, whenever connection allows for it. But between the synchro sessions your client has to run on some data, to represent your input, and in this case it's the client's calculations that are taken into consideration; as they were already both calculated and displayed by the client, AND are a basis for another batch or batches of calculations, server has no other 'option' than to accept info received from client, with all calculations done by the client, with rounding up/down by the client, and then fit it into server's version of the battle (again, to prevent hacking and cheating - server version is the final say, in a manner of speaking). Two different levels of rounding the numbers, by the client and by the server, sometimes mismatch slightly - and that's why results screen (e.g. PP score) during the battle does not match the one after battle (i.e. client-side was showing what was calculated locally, but after the battle displays the version 'negotiated' with the server, 'approved' by the server - including all the detailed numbers operation).

 

It's a combination of both calculating methods adopted (and natural to fast calculations of huge numbers and huge amounts of data), and variability introduced by server-client communication (as per ISP at any given moment not being a constant number). Ideal circumstances, one tested in every game's development cycle, tend to minimize the impact of the latter, as both the server and clients - being 'local', with optimum and stable connection (they are in the same office, after all, or use dedicated and unencumbered lines to communicate) - suffer minimal lag and delay, thus tending to suggest that both sides do exactly the same calculation at exactly the same moment, with exactly the same parameteres present. Which in real life is never the case, though vast majority of players will fall within 'optimum conditions' brackets, and only a few unlucky people suffering the results of what I described.

 

I hope it's clear and simple now. Have a good one, and I wish you a stable connection and perfect rounding (especially after all the Easter foods).


Edited by apartclassic, 11 April 2020 - 06:31 PM.

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zen_monk_ #5 Posted 11 April 2020 - 08:49 AM

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Oh mighty Apartclassic, bless me and hear me, Apartclassic!

A lotus springs forth from your navel, your hands churn the oceans...

 

...you know the rest :honoring:


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apartclassic #6 Posted 11 April 2020 - 08:53 AM

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I do, I even have it on one of my planes :D

 

In all seriousness though, before someone takes it serious - this is NOT the official version. I'm neither a mathematician, nor a programmer, so I have no clue if the above is real or not (though you must admit, looks legit, right?). Facts and persons presented above are a work of fiction and bear no relation to real facts and real persons, and so on and so forth. In other words, you have been warned ;)


Edited by apartclassic, 11 April 2020 - 08:54 AM.

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GonerNL #7 Posted 11 April 2020 - 03:47 PM

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View Postapartclassic, on 11 April 2020 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm leaning towards a bug, a flaw in the coding version.

 

Unthinkable !!

If here were ANY bugs, WG would fix them immediately as they always do.



blindfoId #8 Posted 13 April 2020 - 08:58 AM

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View Postzen_monk_, on 11 April 2020 - 09:29 AM, said:

I've tried to avoid making any points for this Daily "...points for destroying ground targets" so tomorrow morning I will be given a new one, changeable. Flew a HF, very high, hunting only bombers and their escorts, all the kills and shooting done waaay up high. But still the game gave me 350 points for destroying ground targets.

 

 

It's not the first time this happened, therefore I was extremely careful not to shoot any GAA over the sector, no shooting anywhere where my shells might hit something on the ground.

 

So what made this 350 damage?  (and ruined my chance to pick two choices tomorrow)

 

 

That's something new. I will pass it along for a check, but it would be very helpful if you could attach a post-battle screenshot to make sure there's no credit for GT damage in it and/or a replay next time you face this issue.

Thank you in advance :honoring:



zen_monk_ #9 Posted 13 April 2020 - 09:00 AM

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Thank you very much, I will when it happens again.

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apartclassic #10 Posted 13 April 2020 - 09:13 AM

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blindfold, with all due respect - it's something totally not new :) I am sure it has been noted and reported a lot of times, for a long time; the game in some mysterious manner counts GT damage even when none was done/shown, and it's entirely possible to do a whole daily mission for damage done to GTs without firing a single bullet into them (though I must admit, it would take a while to do so). I will provide a screenie as well, to show zen_monk_ is not an exception in this.

Edited by apartclassic, 13 April 2020 - 09:14 AM.

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KlausHetti #11 Posted 13 April 2020 - 09:58 AM

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New or not new - who cares?
It is the same for all the players. If you get these points - be happy.
In 99,x% of the battles it does not change the result of a battle.

The priority of this check by Devs should be low.
There are topics which need more attentions.


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Frateras #12 Posted 13 April 2020 - 10:50 AM

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The answer might be much more simple: gravity

The bullets have to fall down somewhere and they always fall to the ground a phenomenon  Isaac Newton discovered with an apple. But its was he explanation of course which was great. 

Newton's law of universal gravitation is usually stated that every particle attracts every other particle in the universe with a force which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between their centers.[note 1] The publication of the theory has become known as the "first great unification", as it marked the unification of the previously described phenomena of gravity on Earth with known astronomical behaviors.[1]

By the way I'm very impressed of Apartclassics IT-knowledge! and ask myself if it could have to do with the algorithm which is used in the game for it. Especially regarding the speed of an object. When I see my bullets flying in the dog fight it must be a very mighty power. So the blow out shots (miss) might have met an unintended target at the ground after all when their speed becomes to slow to keep them in the air. (and I wonder if they consider the rotation of the earth ...)


Edited by Frateras, 13 April 2020 - 11:11 AM.


GonerNL #13 Posted 13 April 2020 - 11:21 AM

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I can imagine that 'falling' bullets might damage ground targets, but destroy them ?!

 



apartclassic #14 Posted 13 April 2020 - 11:39 AM

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Disclaimer! What I wrote above was not based on any knowledge about WoWP. As far as I know, there is no bullet drop, nor Coriolis effect, nor any other physical phenomenon taken into consideration in game's engine. For all we know - and blindfold sort of confirms - it is an unintended effect. I do think there's a grain of truth in what I wrote (as in, you are shooting at a plane, but there is a GT in range of your bullets, and some that missed your targets have indeed hit a GT), but overall it seems to be more of a bug. I had GT damage or assists when I was flying a HF and killing bombers through all the battle, and there is no way I could've hit anything on the ground while I was above 1500 meters (unless... gravity... and FMJ ammo used... and Coriolis effect...).

 

Just as a curio, look this up - these things happen, and I often wondered about something like that e.g. during Battle of Britain, with all the expended cartridges and dogfights over populated cities, not to mention shrapnel from flak rounds; what comes up, must go down, you know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

 

EDIT: oh, an afterthought. The client/server separation is real in WoWP, and it works pretty well regarding cheats and hacks. There is no aimbot possible for WoWP because the relevant math is handled server-side, thus preventing any client-side manipulation (which is why I usually have a good laugh when I hear hackuzations and 'cheater' complaints). Another way to see it first-hand is to compare what you see on your screen during battle, and how it looks when you watch a replay. Replay shows the server-approved version of events (notice that all replays diplay a constant 30ms ping, iirc, while in battle it fluctuates); in battle you see your bullets hitting your target and you hear the bullets impact (so this is your client interpreting the data it has, and showing it as it looks on your side), but in the replay - where you have 'server-approved' version - it clearly shows your bullets missing targets, even when there's the impact sound. It's the server sending out info sort of post factum, confirming that a hit was accomplished, and confirming what was already displayed by client. This is also one of the sources of infamous hitreg bug, or doing 0 damage when 'obviously' your fire is accurate on your screen. It may appear so for you, and your local machine, but the server knows better and is returning a 'nope' info, albeit out of synch.


Edited by apartclassic, 13 April 2020 - 11:48 AM.

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paradigmshift #15 Posted 13 April 2020 - 11:48 AM

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maybe I missed something but why is this a problem. you can switch daily missions every 4 hours. switch as you logout  and next day you login if you don't like it change it immediately . any extra points are welcome in this game.

 

no yoda thanks

 


Edited by paradigmshift, 13 April 2020 - 11:49 AM.


zen_monk_ #16 Posted 13 April 2020 - 05:48 PM

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- no you can not switch mission every 4 hours

- in order to be given new changeable mission in the morning you must not make any specific points for a current one

- extra (unintentional) points are blocking free morning offer of the new mission(s) and are not welcomed at all

 

hence this thread

 

yes you missed it


Edited by zen_monk_, 14 April 2020 - 09:30 AM.

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KlausHetti #17 Posted 14 April 2020 - 07:07 AM

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ok zen - that's a reason!


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PaulSturm #18 Posted 14 April 2020 - 11:08 AM

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It seems that destroying Ground attackers over the active sector gives some experience for ground targets as well. I have this mission and checked several times, always happens when GA is destroyed. It's a fixed amount but dependent on a GA tier I think and not on HP.

 

Maybe it's intentionally programmed this way, but this needs to be confirmed...

 

There is some logic in it though, Russian female pilot has a special skill to destroy whole or part of ground target if crashed into it, so something similar can be in game code when destroying GA plane that could crash into a ground target and do some damage to it that will be attributed to the opponent. I think that every plane should have that ability depending on its weight, light fighters can at least destroy AA gun and massive planes armored section or few soft sections while crashing. This is a tactic that will be rarely used but can be justified in some situations when nothing else can be done, when HP is almost depleted and only chance to receive some additional experience is to hit the ground target, in some rare cases Mining Plant can be conquered this way if only 20 points left and a small amount on central structure...



apartclassic #19 Posted 14 April 2020 - 06:19 PM

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Dear blindfold, it's more than just 'gravity' and bullets travelling farther than we notice. I started paying attention, and it's not only about GT missions. Take a look at this thing below please:

 

 

Top 3 players by the number of destroyed air defense aircraft, right? But here's the thing - I didn't kill a single one. I damaged some, but not a single kill achieved, yet the mission was advanced:

 

 

A single kill, on a player HF. Nowhere does it show I killed an ADA (because I did not). I have a screenie of the full post-battle report, as well as the replay, should you want me to send it somewhere.


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blindfoId #20 Posted 15 April 2020 - 07:55 AM

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View Postapartclassic, on 14 April 2020 - 09:19 PM, said:

Dear blindfold, it's more than just 'gravity' and bullets travelling farther than we notice. I started paying attention, and it's not only about GT missions. Take a look at this thing below please:

 

 

Top 3 players by the number of destroyed air defense aircraft, right? But here's the thing - I didn't kill a single one. I damaged some, but not a single kill achieved, yet the mission was advanced:

 

 

A single kill, on a player HF. Nowhere does it show I killed an ADA (because I did not). I have a screenie of the full post-battle report, as well as the replay, should you want me to send it somewhere.

 

Ah, so it's not just one mission. Got it, thank you for your report and screnshots. All information's been forwarded to the team for a check. 






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