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BSh-2 Woe.


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punkadelic #1 Posted 03 July 2020 - 11:40 AM

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So I have been trying to play the Russian attacker BSh-2 with very poor success, why? well because it doesn't have a rear gunner for a start, i get enemy fighters on my tail and that's it, game over.

Time and time again, and there's absolutely NOTHING I can do about it.

Obviously this sorry state of affairs means that I can contribute nothing and thus get pathetic rewards and so on goes the suffering, and my reward for eventually getting through all this BS is another plane that also does not have a rear gunner, great, can't WAIT to try that one out....



RoyalFlyingCorps #2 Posted 03 July 2020 - 11:42 AM

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And not only that, when you get to the highest tiers, planes that are actually good, you'll find they've been made redundant by OP EF-131s and Su-10s...

 



punkadelic #3 Posted 03 July 2020 - 11:48 AM

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Cant see me getting to high tier in this line, I am already fuming and only played a few battles in it, utter pile of garbage, and to be honest, pointless as it's too slow to get to the action spots, and can't deal with enemy fighters, not to mention the constant defeats, 

Edited by punkadelic, 03 July 2020 - 12:00 PM.


jakub_czyli_ja #4 Posted 03 July 2020 - 07:19 PM

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Il-2 is same, only with a little bit ordnance, but they are at least historical - for some reason rear gunner position was removed from the design.

apartclassic #5 Posted 03 July 2020 - 08:59 PM

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View Postjakub_czyli_ja, on 03 July 2020 - 07:19 PM, said:

Il-2 is same, only with a little bit ordnance, but they are at least historical - for some reason rear gunner position was removed from the design.

 

It was Stalin's insistence. There are claims he thought that pilots would behave more cowardly, if they had a reargunner to protect them. As Stalin was no aircraft designer, there was no rational reason for his insistence. If I remember right, the first 2 seaters appeared about the time of Kursk offensive, and were a very nasty surprise for the German pilots. By then they were used to the unprotected rear of the plane, appearance of the gunner wasn't welcome by them - as opposed to IL-2 pilots.


Edited by apartclassic, 03 July 2020 - 09:08 PM.

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Spartan_93 #6 Posted 03 July 2020 - 09:06 PM

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Well, 7,62mm backgunners are not that usefull ...

The problem is the lack of speed in combination with bad manouvreability and low altitude => easy target for everyone and just too slow to reach a base in time.



apartclassic #7 Posted 03 July 2020 - 10:14 PM

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View PostSpartan_93, on 03 July 2020 - 09:06 PM, said:

Well, 7,62mm backgunners are not that usefull ...

The problem is the lack of speed in combination with bad manouvreability and low altitude => easy target for everyone and just too slow to reach a base in time.

 

Historically it was rather the 12.7mm UBT heavy machine gun - just sayin'

 

EDIT: the tier 5 premium IL-2 (mod.) that we have seems to be a field modification, that was rather crude; what they were doing was just cutting a hole in the fuselage and mounting that 7.62 MG. It didn't work well not only because of the low calibre, but mostly because it impacted the flight characteristics (the engine was underpowered in the early versions, the added weight of the gun and the gunner was worsening it still, not to mention moving the plane's centre of gravity to the back)


Edited by apartclassic, 03 July 2020 - 10:17 PM.

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punkadelic #8 Posted 04 July 2020 - 02:14 PM

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Whatever the reasoning behind the real version, and if they flew into combat with enemy fighters around they would probably have been as dreadful as the game, the lack of at least mediocre protection from the rear makes this model almost unbearable IMO, such a shame as it should and could be quite fun to play it if only it could get to a target.

dapprman #9 Posted 05 July 2020 - 09:21 PM

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View Postpunkadelic, on 04 July 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

Whatever the reasoning behind the real version, and if they flew into combat with enemy fighters around they would probably have been as dreadful as the game, the lack of at least mediocre protection from the rear makes this model almost unbearable IMO, such a shame as it should and could be quite fun to play it if only it could get to a target.


The numbers they lost during the Kursk offensive/defensive was horrendous - while the German Stukas proved to be very effective and much feared, with the Soviets it was artillery.



apartclassic #10 Posted 05 July 2020 - 10:08 PM

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So here's the thing. For one, Soviet doctrine was treating air force as the extension of artillery, working as support and in close proximity to the battlefield. Hence the neglect of heavy bombers initially - tactical bombers and attack aircraft were to supplement line artillery. For two, Sovier air industry (like most of the others at that time) struggled with the engine design. IL-2 prototype, with all the armour, weighed so much that even that initial single-seater version (our tier 4 BSh-2) was struggling to be airworthy. In the course of the war more powerful engines were developed, but added armament (and later on the reargunner station) still taxed the engines. Reargunner position was armoured only symbolically, and the attrition rate among the gunners was horrible. While we're at it, the ordnance carried by IL-2 in various versions was actually rather lackluster, except the SCAP bomblets introduced around 1943 en masse. The plane always relied on the guns as primary means of dealing damage. The official stats list ca. 4500 meters (ca. 15000 feet) as operational ceiling, but it took at least 15 minutes to climb to that altitude; since usually ILs were based very close to the frontline, pilots didn't even bother. The plane was too heavy, and even the most powerful engines gave it marginal stability in the air. Lack of rear protection was one of the reasons for the invention of the Circle of Death, where a formation of ILs was circling in the vicinity of their targets, while smaller elements peeled off for attack runs and then returned to the formation - in which each plane was mutually protected by the forward armament of others in formation, not reargunners.

Edited by apartclassic, 05 July 2020 - 10:09 PM.

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levlos #11 Posted 06 July 2020 - 04:41 PM

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View Postpunkadelic, on 03 July 2020 - 01:40 PM, said:

So I have been trying to play the Russian attacker BSh-2 with very poor success, why? well because it doesn't have a rear gunner for a start, i get enemy fighters on my tail and that's it, game over.

Time and time again, and there's absolutely NOTHING I can do about it.

Obviously this sorry state of affairs means that I can contribute nothing and thus get pathetic rewards and so on goes the suffering, and my reward for eventually getting through all this BS is another plane that also does not have a rear gunner, great, can't WAIT to try that one out....


Odd,

 

I am having a blast in that plane. Yes its slow, yes it does not have a rear gunner. BUT it has VERY powerful guns for its tier -and they never overheat-, and it still has four good bombs. Play it as you would a very heavy multi-role: kill the aircraft flying low if you meet some, and then finish the base with bombs. You will be judged as being the lower menace and priority when reds are around, so enjoy :)

 

Oh, and I always keep a couple of bombs for bomb traps in my rear ! Just remember, in order to use the above tactics, you have to think accordingly: never go were reds planes are without a lot of support. Or find a lonely base and get it. Finding yourself over a plant in tier IV and being able to cap it before you retire is a big plus. I find the il-2 afterwards more powerful, but less fun (and even slower!).

 

you got to plan where you want to be. If you dislike the Bsh-2, you will have the il-2 of tier VI. Then, at last, the utter ectasy of il-10 and all further planes make it all worthy -and you exit the realm of trolldom to really make a difference for your team's victory.

 

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jakub_czyli_ja #12 Posted 28 July 2020 - 09:06 PM

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View Postlevlos, on 06 July 2020 - 04:41 PM, said:

I am having a blast in that plane. Yes its slow, yes it does not have a rear gunner. BUT it has VERY powerful guns for its tier -and they never overheat-, and it still has four good bombs. Play it as you would a very heavy multi-role: kill the aircraft flying low if you meet some, and then finish the base with bombs. You will be judged as being the lower menace and priority when reds are around, so enjoy :)

Rather as a free frag for any sorry tier III plane in tier IV battle - with their puny machine guns they can't do much against grown up tier IVs, but they can stick on BSh-2 tail long enough to scrap the pinata from HPs.

Rare gem of truly historical plane in WoWP.



GonerNL #13 Posted 29 July 2020 - 07:46 AM

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The BSh-2 (IV) and IL-2 (V) are a bit of a struggle, but still fun to play. The IL-2(mod) and IL-2(t) do have rear-gunner but only mg's so not real killers. Only with IL-8 and -10 you get a real gunner with 20mm that has some bite.

As levlos says you need to fly defensively, use bomb-trap if possible and move around a lot. Stay low and as slow as possible, make it hard for the fast fighters.  A lot are so target-fixated that they crash into you or the surroundings.






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