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Woolfie_aka_paca_chatban #1 Posted 14 October 2020 - 11:12 AM

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Has anyone out there noticed the new way of fixing games 

 in a game when the reds cap  all bases within  3 mins 

your bombs don't do any damage and none of your bots bombers cap (if they cap)

within the same time as the reds bots cap  

 



GonerNL #2 Posted 14 October 2020 - 11:55 AM

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It's all about the atrocious matchmaking ... every now & then MM manages to assemble 2 more or less balanced teams, but most of the time it's just a roll of the dice.

And sometimes it even looks as if it does it on purpose ; all specialists in one team, all Spits in one team, all human bombers in one team ... 



CheefCoach #3 Posted 14 October 2020 - 12:44 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 14 October 2020 - 12:55 PM, said:

It's all about the atrocious matchmaking ... every now & then MM manages to assemble 2 more or less balanced teams, but most of the time it's just a roll of the dice.

And sometimes it even looks as if it does it on purpose ; all specialists in one team, all Spits in one team, all human bombers in one team ... 

It is not atrocious, and it is always a roll of a dice. MM is optimized to players have short queue and to protect servers of excessive number of battles with all bots. 


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CheefCoach #4 Posted 14 October 2020 - 12:45 PM

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View PostWoolfie_aka_paca_chatban, on 14 October 2020 - 12:12 PM, said:

Has anyone out there noticed the new way of fixing games 

 in a game when the reds cap  all bases within  3 mins 

your bombs don't do any damage and none of your bots bombers cap (if they cap)

within the same time as the reds bots cap  

 

Games aren't fixed. Every drop of a bomb is subject to RNG, so bombs sometimes goes to the center of the aiming side, and sometimes to the edges. Simply speaking, sometimes you just don't have luck. 


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GonerNL #5 Posted 14 October 2020 - 05:46 PM

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View PostCheefCoach, on 14 October 2020 - 01:44 PM, said:

It is not atrocious, and it is always a roll of a dice. MM is optimized to players have short queue and to protect servers of excessive number of battles with all bots. 

 

Sorry, but that is BS. With all respect ...

In the same time it puts 4 specialists in Spits on one team and multirole noobs on the other, it could distribute them over two teams. It's just very poorly thought out and written software ... 

 


Edited by GonerNL, 14 October 2020 - 05:46 PM.


Grison_SE #6 Posted 14 October 2020 - 07:12 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 14 October 2020 - 05:46 PM, said:

 

Sorry, but that is BS. With all respect ...

In the same time it puts 4 specialists in Spits on one team and multirole noobs on the other, it could distribute them over two teams. It's just very poorly thought out and written software ... 

 

So true, just had a battle like that, 4 specced sh!tfires on red team, 2 downtiered LF's on blue + useless bot MRF 


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Mournfull #7 Posted 14 October 2020 - 07:57 PM

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Have to say I agree with both of you.

In the last month I have kept tally of whether I am upper or lower tier.

On average I have been lower tier for 8 out of 10 games for this time.

Not only that I have also put on the tally when I have been in a tier 10 so if it's as simple as a roll of dice why aren't I higher tier more often.

So that is the problem with the tier system for starters!

 

In the last week in particular have been trying to use tier 4 German ground attack planes, I have been lower tier for most of those games at the above ratio and more often than not there are 2 or 3 specialized spitfires or 109E's or Beaufighters etc and my team mates are in a similar plane or bomber and possibly 1fighter in the higher tier.

 

You can quote any thing that is written by Wargames or Blindfold or anyone else as far as I am concerned but you will not prove or convince me that the MM is FUBAR!

 

 



TungstenHitman #8 Posted 14 October 2020 - 08:19 PM

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I'm guessing that just like WoT, this game also features a "always bottom tier" style MM to entice noobs to uptier into the "now you gotta buy a premium account to play" tiers and thus is the business model at WG I dare say. Also, I'm guessing that this games MM also doesn't factor the status of the vehicles or in this case aircraft and of course by that I mean it does not factor stock or specialized or level of upgrades etc(Though when I so consistently see one team with getting all the specialized airplanes while the other team only has 1 or none, I would be very skeptical! Just a case of consistently "randomly" being a totally hatchet job MM? pffff lol). 


Certainly the waiting time is not the reason for one team getting 4 Spits while the other gets none or any such examples of one team getting all the OP as F aircraft while the other gets crappy aircraft. We can confidently say this because we can clearly see lots of these same type aircraft in the battle we just entered after waiting not long at all lol... therefore there was lots of them and could have easily being divided in some fair way between the teams just as fast as throwing them all on the same team.

 

Stock vs Specialized not withstanding, there's also a case to be made for balancing a few aircraft better. Thankfully in this game overall it's pretty balanced I dare say, at least compared to WG's other two "World of..." offerings but ya. the like of the T5 Spit and Beaufighter are OP as F tbh and I say that as a player that really enjoys playing the Beau and why wouldn't I when it's OP as F lol? So there's a few per tier that need a little nerfing, not massive wholesale nerfs that ruin the aircraft, just a little nerf.

 

Also and finally, so long as this bs MM continues then another option as mentioned by myself and many before me, is to reward the best losers(top 2 or 3) with full salvage and everything they would have received had it been a win. As it stands, not only is this game a "Win or go F yourself" offering which makes any lost battle almost a complete waste of your time and effort BUT, it also does nothing to encourage players to stay and actually bother with such a total shitshow MM hatchet job and they don't, they leave and who'd blame them tbh. 

 

In the meantime, enjoy plenty of this.

 


Edited by TungstenHitman, 14 October 2020 - 08:20 PM.


hardy9z9 #9 Posted 15 October 2020 - 06:57 AM

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I give up on discussing the Matchmaker over and over again.

But I agree with you: I, too, am almost always low-tier and get into the worse teams. What do I have to buy at WG to be one of the lucky ones ?


Edited by hardy9z9, 15 October 2020 - 07:54 AM.


GonerNL #10 Posted 15 October 2020 - 08:09 AM

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Exactly, so who are the players that always get on the team with higher tier, specialists, OP bombers etc ?? 

 

I just gave up flying on the CIS server for this morning, after 5 or 6 battles in a row that could just not be won ... all roflstomps.

Is it just extremely bad luck ? 


Edited by GonerNL, 15 October 2020 - 08:10 AM.


maxram68 #11 Posted 15 October 2020 - 08:52 AM

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View PostGonerNL, on 15 October 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

...

I just gave up flying on the CIS server for this morning, after 5 or 6 battles in a row that could just not be won ... all roflstomps.

Is it just extremely bad luck ? 

 

Had a similar experience last night on EU-server (the only one I play) while playing during "prime time" (=most players online).

Think it was 7 or 8 roflstomps - really big ones, actually - out of 10 battles or so.  

 

Happens occasionally - also the other way around - every now and then.

 

I honestly don't know anymore if it's extremely bad luck or the deck is stacked.

What happens looks so "deliberate" (for the lack of a better word) that it can hardly be a pure coincidence.

 

I would really like to see RFC's numbers in relation to this, if possible.

 

Hell...I might even code something myself using replays.

It's certainly doable and it can be automated 100% all the way up to the point of interpretation...

 



GonerNL #12 Posted 15 October 2020 - 11:02 AM

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View Postmaxram68, on 15 October 2020 - 09:52 AM, said:

I honestly don't know anymore if it's extremely bad luck or the deck is stacked.

What happens looks so "deliberate" (for the lack of a better word) that it can hardly be a pure coincidence.

 

Yeah, that's why I said I was afraid of getting/looking paranoid ... I get loads of battles where the enemy has 4 or 5 specialists (vs 0) and also the better planes and when I finally get 3 specialists, the other team also gets 3. I almost never get a 4-0 situation. 

 



Mournfull #13 Posted 15 October 2020 - 11:21 AM

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Just played 2 games and both times I was in the upper the upper tier!

 

Good start? you have to be kidding!!!!

 

1st game 4 human players. I was in the premium tier 5 German ground attack specialized, there was also an unspecialized Spitfire.  The other 2 human players were in ground attacks both tech tree a German that was specialized and the other Russian both at Tier 4.

Opposing team a specialized Beaufighter, a specialized BF110E, an unspecialized B17 bomber, and a tier 4 Blenheim that was specialized.

ROFLSTOMPED!!!

 

The 2nd game was pretty much the same except there were 5 humans on both sides and both sides had an extra Spitfire.

Both spitfires went to the centre and duked it out an the mandatory fashion their mentality allowed them to. The 2 human GA's couldn't compete with the bombers and the 2 specialized Heavy fighters that had lots of lols killing the GA's.

Not sure of what the rest did as the game was over in slightly more time than it took the MM to get use the game.

 

 


Edited by Mournfull, 15 October 2020 - 11:22 AM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #14 Posted 15 October 2020 - 01:15 PM

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Back to statistics; when I used to analyse my games, several thousand of them, I found tiers 4 and 7 disproportionately had low tier games.  This was most marked with tier 4s, where something like 60-70% of the games are low tier.

 

In short, the match maker has many defects, all of which exist either because the process of making games without long queues has been kept deliberately simple or because, as in the case of specialisation, no provision was made for balancing certain aspects of the game.  In combination, these factors produce games that are frequently unbalanced.  With respect to tiers 4 and 7, the fact that they are the highest tiers of their respective periods suggests to me that people tend to avoid playing them in order to make so-called daily missions a little easier and thus those that do play them are forced to meet players in higher tier aircraft more frequently.  By the same token, people are playing tiers 5 and 8 for the same reason.  That's a vicious circle.


Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 15 October 2020 - 01:15 PM.


hardy9z9 #15 Posted 15 October 2020 - 02:50 PM

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Thanks RFC !
Your statistics seem to confirm my subjective impressions.
The more human players there are, the higher is the probability to meet opponents with specialized planes, because bots don't fly specials.

bug #16 Posted 15 October 2020 - 06:17 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 15 October 2020 - 01:15 PM, said:

Back to statistics; when I used to analyse my games, several thousand of them, I found tiers 4 and 7 disproportionately had low tier games.  This was most marked with tier 4s, where something like 60-70% of the games are low tier.

 

I have the same experience. I had hundreds of games where I noted tier, class and upper/lower tier. 3 of 4 games were low tier games. Also tier 9 can be tough. Depends on time of day. If you are suspicious of this claim, you don't do daily missions.

And when I'm into dailies, they must have been made by someone not playing the game. Missions with "only if you win" and anything based on "personal points", either if its kills,ground attacks or whatever have not played these missions. If they did they notice that something is very easy in tier 10 or 8, even 6. But in tier 4 - personal points for a stellar game is insane much lower than a bad game in high tier games. Go figure.



Grison_SE #17 Posted 15 October 2020 - 07:50 PM

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I've taken notes of battles, 175 battles in T3 since counting began, 50 in t2-t3 battles, the rest in t3-t4. Go figure...
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TungstenHitman #18 Posted 15 October 2020 - 08:51 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 15 October 2020 - 01:15 PM, said:

Back to statistics; when I used to analyse my games, several thousand of them, I found tiers 4 and 7 disproportionately had low tier games.  This was most marked with tier 4s, where something like 60-70% of the games are low tier.

 

In short, the match maker has many defects, all of which exist either because the process of making games without long queues has been kept deliberately simple or because, as in the case of specialisation, no provision was made for balancing certain aspects of the game.  In combination, these factors produce games that are frequently unbalanced.  With respect to tiers 4 and 7, the fact that they are the highest tiers of their respective periods suggests to me that people tend to avoid playing them in order to make so-called daily missions a little easier and thus those that do play them are forced to meet players in higher tier aircraft more frequently.  By the same token, people are playing tiers 5 and 8 for the same reason.  That's a vicious circle.

 

In this comment you're just stating the obvious. Most fans of the "World of..." series know the bottom tier MM template and how it works, that's not your discovery obviously. This is just information about the MM WG openly share and how it works, like the classis "3-5-7" template(or whatever ratio it was/is) which by obvious way of the fact that clearly almost half every team are going to be comprised of bottom tiers, stands to reason that being bottom tier most battles is % the most likely outcome, and that being top tier in most battles is the least likely outcome, since clearly there's only just 3 top tier players on each team compared to 12 lower tier possibilities(mide or low), or 6/24(WoT btw but the same basic template across all games) and thus being top tier can only be the low % outcome each battle.

 

In WoWP most players know that we will generally play the lowest tier which satisfies daily mission parameters etc since that's most always the easiest path so it only makes sense to do so but as a consequence it heavily influences MM into battles heavily saturate by those popular tiers obviously. So since T5 is very popular, being the lowest P2 tier, that means if you pick a T4, don't be surprised if you see T5 battles most all the time and equally if you play a T6, don't be surprised to get a lot of battles vs T5 since T5 is clearly where a lot of players are at. Therefore logically if you want to give yourself the best chance of being top tier, play T6 and if you like to get screwed in the rear, play T4 lol(though tbh a lot of players play T3 too so this is not so dramatic as a better tier example). My point is, that all you just said is not a case of you using some wonderous analysis across thousands of battles with your supposed job role IRL(MI6 or FBI or KGB?))) and so until you actually put some data down on the table for us to see, is nothing more than stating the obvious about MM we already know about, with a side order of bs. 


Edited by TungstenHitman, 15 October 2020 - 09:09 PM.


Ykazumi #19 Posted 15 October 2020 - 09:04 PM

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I was also interested in making a kind of survey based on tally esp. about bots. There are mainly two things which have attracted my attention:

When my team (s) loses quickly,bots of the red team are scoring 3 times more critial hits(occasionally 4 times more !) plus they more often than not have entity of several good players of highly specialized planes with good killls,and much more critical hits ,wheras,bots in my team(s) will end up in scoring 1/3 of what red team can get,and new players mostly in weaker planes are awful , useless than anticipated.This will be the rule of "coincidence" here. The ratio of such occurrence has been quite high,say, 2 in 8-10 battles or more. From these alone ,I´m probably one of those who are declining believing this is purely conincidental and a stroke of bad luck in series. 

 

Another thing is, bots (of my own teams) can aim at enemy planes at 6,as soon as they do, they turns their noses away from aerial targets. I first thought some unusual thing was happening to these bots when they repeated the same action 5 times in a row. I got shocked to know this abnormal behaviour,almost am regarding this as a kind of savotage or it´s similar;of not killing enemy bots delibarately. Is this part of the way the games are pre-programmed? Some bot , when a battle initiates,surprisingly to my eyes, flies back to the starting point and is losing it´s time. At the end some bots are idling away their time over green zone when  necessary to eradicate remaining enemy bots. if so, one may be allowed to call this a certain form of  rigged game, or else?

cheers


Edited by Ykazumi, 15 October 2020 - 09:34 PM.


houghtonbee #20 Posted 16 October 2020 - 12:56 PM

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Just had a game with two friendly bot bombers spending the entirity of the battle flying over a mine without capping it. And i mean they went from initial spawn straight there until the opposition finally bothered to attack them after spall. And they still couldnt cap the [edited]thing between them while surprise surprise their two bot bombers cap both mines.

An uneven joke of a match.




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