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Understand XP Returns


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TungstenHitman #1 Posted 13 November 2020 - 08:32 PM

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Hi guys,

 

Can you take a look at the screenshot and tell me if all is as it should be. I'm always a bit tinfoil hat when it comes to XP returns and more a case of just don't understand.

 

 

 

So I ended up with total of 15k xp. I scrolled over the XP breakdown and also the buff. What I stood to gain was a X5 for the win and also a +100% xp via the use of the personal reserve. Also, I added the 7 year emblem for an addition 5%.

 

For some reason I was kinda expecting more with X5 and another +100% but maybe it's as it should be?

 

Maybe I'm just a used to having the skill training selected which gives 30-40K crew training points and that's why it seems a bit on the low side of things.

 

Thanks.



CheefCoach #2 Posted 13 November 2020 - 08:41 PM

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Well it seems:

 

You got 400% on x5, and that is 1 regular and 4 times more as bonus.

You got 100% for booster. 

You got 5% for amblem. 

So 505% for other bonuses. 50% is addition to premium, so 555% in total.

Around 2k of xp seems ok as base. 


Edited by CheefCoach, 13 November 2020 - 08:41 PM.

https://stats-sig.eu/wowp/CheefCoach/ussr/xs/en/sig.png

Aimless #3 Posted 13 November 2020 - 08:50 PM

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Maaan Tungsten you're a long time veteran tanker. You should really know how about WG's calculation. Every single multiplier starts from the base XP, and then you add up the intermediate results.



TungstenHitman #4 Posted 13 November 2020 - 08:52 PM

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Lol. ok ok. So the 2,295 figure stated "Total XP without bonuses", this is not the base XP? So if it's not the base XP, then what does it represent. Base XP + something else? I know it can't be the base XP because that was a very average battle result @9k PP

Edited by TungstenHitman, 13 November 2020 - 08:56 PM.


Aimless #5 Posted 13 November 2020 - 09:06 PM

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Oh, I overlooked the base XP in the first screenshot.

 

So let's have a look if I am right:

 

Premium 2295 0.5 1147
5x for victory 2295 5 11475
Emblem 2295 0.05 114
Boosters 2295 1 2295

 

What are we getting in addition? 15031. That's the good old WG way of XP calculation  :)


Edited by Aimless, 15 November 2020 - 09:01 PM.


TungstenHitman #6 Posted 13 November 2020 - 10:07 PM

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View PostAimless, on 13 November 2020 - 09:06 PM, said:

Oh, I overlooked the base XP in the first screenshot.

 

So let's have a look if I am right:

 

Premium 2295 0.5 1447
5x for victory 2295 4 11475
Emblem 2295 0.05 114
Boosters 2295 1 2295

 

What are we getting in addition? 15031. That's the good old WG way of XP calculation  :)

 

I guess it just highlights the importance every extracting every last crumb of potential from a battle when there's a big multiplier in effect. Thing is, as we all know, that's a lot easier with a top spec airplane(or tank or ship!!) because naturally it has the attributes and capability of delivering the big single battle performance when we totally focus and dial in as players too but at that point we don't really need or care for such large XP returns because the vehicle can't get any better at that point and so sadly it's moments when we need the most XP we can get, is when we are not in a position to deliver a mega battle, such is the limitations of our current aircraft... nice when we can drop in a mega battle result with a shhhhh airplane though and that does happen on occasion. :great:

 

Anyway, thanks for the breakdown guys.(Takes off his tinfoil hat... for now))



RoyalFlyingCorps #7 Posted 14 November 2020 - 12:54 PM

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If you had hovered over, in this case, the 15,031 above the "Battle Performance" header (that is, between your silver and free XP values) you would have seen the base XP.  You would also have seen your premium account bonus and other bonuses (x5, boosters).

 

Once you have the aircraft in elite status you can redirect the plane experience to the pilot.  However, that calculation is impenetrable; suffice to say, though it looks wrong, it's heavily in your favour.
 


Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 14 November 2020 - 01:05 PM.


TungstenHitman #8 Posted 17 November 2020 - 12:53 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 14 November 2020 - 12:54 PM, said:

 

Once you have the aircraft in elite status you can redirect the plane experience to the pilot.  However, that calculation is impenetrable; suffice to say, though it looks wrong, it's heavily in your favour.
 

 

I think if the crew training option is selected on an elited and premium aircraft, all battle gained xp is converted to crew xp which I think(don't have access to game right now to check) works out at X2 the final xp figure, or close on that conversion rate. That's not factoring any emblems or other buffs in effect obviously which themselves are taken as a % of the final xp figure I believe.

 

Free XP seems to convert at significantly higher rate. Not sure right now, don't have access to the game... I think it was 1:4 or even higher, was very good for fast training a pilot anyway, if a player should have lots of free xp and not much else to do with it.



RoyalFlyingCorps #9 Posted 17 November 2020 - 06:42 PM

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Incorrect; that's why I said the calculation was impenetrable.

TungstenHitman #10 Posted 18 November 2020 - 11:50 AM

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Unlikely, it just needs better understanding and study. Selecting the crew training option is clearly stated as "crew train twice as fast" therefore it's X2 whatever would have normally been.

 

As for it's breakdown, it's rather intriguing now, will definitely take a look at it later whenever I log-in this evening but I'd be surprised if crew xp figures can't be reduced to an understandable set of multipliers and figures. Of course it would be great if a WG staff member that knows could shed some light on it. For me it's purely from a curiosity aspect. We have the crew training selection option, we have xp to crew xp conversion rates, we have emblems for additional crew xp, we also have emblems such as the recent anniversary which increase regular xp gains that in turn will be more beneficial for crew training where the option is selected, we have premium aircraft that are advertised as training crew faster than regular aircraft so they must have some % buff and of course we have personal reserves and weekend specials for both crew training and xp gains so... it's interesting.  



RoyalFlyingCorps #11 Posted 18 November 2020 - 12:16 PM

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Trust me, it's impenetrable.  Out of curiosity I've tried a number of combinations in order to try to calculate the experience in these circumstances and it just isn't obvious or even slightly hard to work out.  I haven't even started on the calculation for your rear gunner...

TungstenHitman #12 Posted 18 November 2020 - 10:27 PM

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Impenetrable is it? It's actually really easy.

 

I got in a couple of battles between tv this evening to try and make sense of it. As expected, the crew xp is purely based on the final battle xp figure which is shown on the first page of the post battle results.

 

First test was on a regular tech tree aircraft. In this instance, a Bf 109.

 

So here is the resulting XP gained from the battle, a figure of 7,388 and I scrolled over it to show how that was calculated since the devs were good enough to feature the option. But regardless, the battle xp figure is 7,388 and that's what all the crew xp is taken from as a the figure through which each additional % is calculated. This is what I expected tbh.

 

Spoiler

 

Now, where the crew training option selected, all battle xp is converted into crew training as stated in the game and it is also stated that the pilot will train twice as fast and so just like I figured was the case, the battle xp is multiplied by two and indeed the crew xp figure we get is close to that with a final crew xp figure of 16,621.

Spoiler

 

But of course, 16,621 is more than X2 the 7,388 battle xp which would only work out at 14,776. So where does the additional 1845 crew xp come from and how is it calculated? 

 

Again it's very simple. As mentioned, the battle xp is the figure from which all additional crew xp bonuses are calculated from and with my Bf 109, it has camo + nose art + emblem for an additional 25% crew xp. If we get 25% of 7,388 guess what figure we get? That's right, 1845, the missing piece of the puzzle. Certainly not an "impenetrable code". Actually, 25% of 7,388 is actually 1847 but I have reason to believe that numbers shown are just rounded and the actual calculation is based a little deeper than whole figures. So even though my battle experience was shown as 7,388 it's actually more like 7,388.1 or .3 etc. whatever gives rise to an additional 2, which itself is probably more like 2.4 or even 1.8 etc, not a whole number.

 

So the formula for calculating crew xp is taken as a stated % of the total battle experience. For normal non-crew training returns, crew xp is simply the same as the total battle xp with an additional crew xp for whatever emblems etc you have on your aircraft. So if lets say you have 10k battle xp, crew xp will be 10k +5% for the emblem and nose art, 10,500 crew xp. etc etc. and for when crew training option is selected, it's X2 battle xp plus and additional 5% of the battle XP on top. Obviously in the example it was +25% on top because the camo had a +20% so just added to the +5% for the emblem and nose art.


Edited by TungstenHitman, 18 November 2020 - 11:11 PM.


TungstenHitman #13 Posted 18 November 2020 - 10:50 PM

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But what about premium aircraft then?

 

Well, if we look at a premium aircraft in the shop it's shown to have a bonus attribute of training crew 20% faster than tech tree aircraft and so proved to be the case. So it's exactly the same formula but with an additional 20% of the final battle xp figure which I guessed was probably going to be the case.

 

So I played a battle with a premium aircraft, and indeed, I got an additional 20% crew training from the final battle xp figure. 

 

In this instance, I used the cheeky little derp fighter XFL-1 "Airabonita". So after a really fast ROFL stomp by my team, the final XP figure was 5,299 xp and ended up with a total crew xp of 12,979.

 

Spoiler

 

So in the case of this premium aircraft, the 12,979 crew xp figure is established with

 

5,299 X2 = 10,598 + 45% of 5,299(2,381) = 12,979.

 

The 45% is derived from +20% camo, +5% emblem/nose art and finally, that +20% all premium aircraft has by default. 

 

Btw, again there was a slight discrepancy, 45% of 5,299 is actually 2,384.55 and not 2,381 but just like the Bf 109 results, I strongly believe this is just a case of WG not showing us the actual full xp result and we just get shown the xp rounded to the nearest number. So for example instead of our results showing 5,298.6 xp, we are simply shown 5,299 xp instead, but the crew xp calculations are still derived from a % of the 5,298.6 and so we get that tiny little microscopic irregularity in our calculations based on the very slightly inaccurate battle xp figure we are shown when we try do the math. 

 

All in all, the calculations are solid and I have no reason to doubt this is exactly how our crew xp figures are formed for both regular tech tree and premium aircraft.


Edited by TungstenHitman, 18 November 2020 - 11:13 PM.


apartclassic #14 Posted 19 November 2020 - 03:52 AM

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Most bonuses are additive here, not multiplicative. It's shared across all three titles.

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RoyalFlyingCorps #15 Posted 19 November 2020 - 07:10 AM

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I stand corrected, Tungsten.  As you point out, the rounding error throws your calculation off by 4 XP owing to the interface not showing fractional figures.  Unluckily for me the plane I used as my test case turns out to have a special livery, something I thought I had never applied to any of my aircraft, and I'd missed the extra 20%.

 

It's worth pointing out here that the redirection of XP from plane to crew varies if you have two crew members.  In the case below the aircraft experience went to the pilot, but not the gunner.

 


Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 19 November 2020 - 07:14 AM.


TungstenHitman #16 Posted 19 November 2020 - 09:44 AM

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View Postapartclassic, on 19 November 2020 - 03:52 AM, said:

Most bonuses are additive here, not multiplicative. It's shared across all three titles.

 

Most but not all and in these cases it actually would make no difference to the result or formula since twice or X2 the battle xp is the same as battle xp + battle xp. Using multipliers instead of adding same value figures over and over again just shortens what in math can translate into a wall of math... literally.

 

But multipliers are most definitely used too regardless and this is pretty obvious. All we need do is look at the aircraft selection on the bottom screen in our hangers and it's clear to see that a multiplier is applied for our first win bonus, shown as X2 or X3 or X5, whatever it happens to be at the time, but it's most definitely a multiplier being used. You could easily translate that into additives instead though, it wouldn't make any difference to the result or formula, just visually a longer math equation. 


Edited by TungstenHitman, 19 November 2020 - 09:45 AM.


RoyalFlyingCorps #17 Posted 19 November 2020 - 10:43 AM

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What apartclassic means, correctly, is that multipliers do not multiply other multipliers, at least, not directly.  You could argue that the crew experience multipliers, being applied to the crew experience that is a direct product of the aircraft experience that includes multipliers, are indirectly multiplying those.  I tend to the view that the crew experience is a calculated object separate from the aircraft experience.

 

This segment of a worksheet covers all eventualities, I believe, save the rounding errors due to the interface not displaying fractional numbers.  I've tested this with boosters on, separately and combined, special camouflage on and off, &c., and the calculations work.  One just applies the correct configuration in the first table and the base XP in the second to obtain the results.

 

 

As to where crew experience is redirected, that appears to depend on the number of skill points the pilot and the gunner have, the experience being directed to the least skilled.  If those are equal I think the pilot may take preference, though I'm not sure.


Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 19 November 2020 - 10:58 AM.


apartclassic #18 Posted 19 November 2020 - 12:34 PM

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View PostRoyalFlyingCorps, on 19 November 2020 - 07:10 AM, said:

I stand corrected, Tungsten.  As you point out, the rounding error throws your calculation off by 4 XP owing to the interface not showing fractional figures.  Unluckily for me the plane I used as my test case turns out to have a special livery, something I thought I had never applied to any of my aircraft, and I'd missed the extra 20%.

 

It's worth pointing out here that the redirection of XP from plane to crew varies if you have two crew members.  In the case below the aircraft experience went to the pilot, but not the gunner.

 

 

The issue with pilot and reargunners is simple too - the one with lower xp before the battle gets double the xp of the other crew member. In practical terms, if you want to level up a reargunner fast, pair him with a pilot with 1 more skill point, and vice versa. I don't remember the source, since this one is one of the fundamentals of the game (i.e. explained 6 or 7 years ago in dev blog), but you get the gist.


Edited by apartclassic, 19 November 2020 - 12:35 PM.

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TungstenHitman #19 Posted 19 November 2020 - 01:00 PM

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Ya the larger crew xp figure goes to the weakest trained crewmember, otherwise you would just get a horrible imbalance whereby the pilot would be roughly twice as trained as the gunner and no way to close the gap. This is much the same as WoT crew xp distribution and that way, all the crew are roughly equally trained and if a new crew person is added, that new crew person will keep getting the big figure until they are equal with the rest of the crew before once again, it goes to whoever then becomes the weakest trained crewmember at that point. 

 

I can check it later but I'd be confident to suggest that for an airplane featuring a gunner, the bigger crew xp figure is achieved the exact same as for a single pilot aircraft, same formula, nothing different, and that for achieving the smaller crew xp figure the only difference is that you don't get twice the final battle xp figure.

 

So for example, if a two crew aircraft got a final xp figure of 10k, the bigger figure would be 10k X2 + 5% of 10k = 20,500 crew xp while the smaller figure would be 10k + 5% of 10k = 10,500 crew xp.

 

For cases where any additional crew xp buff is in effect, just replace the 5% with whatever final crew xp % increase that would be and the formula works out. 

 

For interest sake, I must take a look later and see if it's actually more beneficial to use the emblem with +5% xp or emblem with +2% crew xp. I'd guess there's not much in the difference but... worth a look, especially if fast crew training is the objective :) We can say for certain that the +2% crew xp from a standard emblem is based on the final battle xp figure BUT, as of yet, I haven't checked to see what the +5% xp is based on. It might just be 5% of base xp which would be a really small figure even when it gets doubled in which case the +2% of the final xp figure is more beneficial. 


Edited by TungstenHitman, 19 November 2020 - 01:11 PM.


apartclassic #20 Posted 19 November 2020 - 01:14 PM

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Honestly, this is a little pointless. Just search for the dev blog article explaining xp earnings, I'm sure there is one. Everything is additive, meaning - like RAF explained - bonuses apply to base xp, and then are added together. Experience earned in battle is split 50/50 between plane and crew (regardless of number), and when 'Crew training' is on, it all goes to crew; pilot/reargunner split again, as mentioned above. There is one exception to the rule, namely XP58, which has a broken xp multiplier (iirc it's the only plane with higher xp multiplier - a known and old-standing 'bug' that really should not be an issue to anyone).

Edited by apartclassic, 19 November 2020 - 01:20 PM.

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