75 replies to this topic

[hardy9z9]

GonerNL, on 25 November 2020 - 11:14 PM, said:

 

What are the chances of that ?    But feel free to put it on your list.

 

What I do experience is battles with already mentioned unbalances. And having those 6 specialists on your team is just as terrible as the other way around ; roflstomps and less points, exp etc ...

 

apartclassic was only exemplary for all the other top pilots you can meet and against whom at least I have no chance at all.
This is again just another point where the MM would probably need to be repaired. All this would be a rather long way to a perfect MM. And after every step on this way, someone finds the next blatant injustice.
Do you possibly recognize my intention now ?

[GonerNL]

hardy9z9, on 25 November 2020 - 10:29 PM, said:

Do you possibly recognize my intention now ?

 

Nope, not at all.

I only see you coming up with problems that I never mentioned as a problem. I realize you can't fix MM to be 100%, but some things should be relatively easy to fix. Specialists and unbalanced plane types are just numbers, it's a case of quantity, not quality.

 

Let's just agree that we don't agree (on this).

[hardy9z9]

Yes, it is only up to me - I could not make my point generally understandable.
When these two simple number-based things are fixed, everything will be fine and nobody will complain anymore.
Thank you for your time to answer my posts.

[CheefCoach]

Apparently you don't understand how MM in WG is working. MM is picking players from general pool for side A, and for side B. It can't reshuffle side A and B after picking up in order to balance things out. 

 

Every criteria you put into MM will increase queue time. Queue time is fixed to 100-105 seconds after that it defaults to battle against bots. 

 

Before last iteration we had karma system. It keep trucking how man times player was top tier (bad karma points added) and lower tier (good karma points added), so player would be roughly half time top and half time bottom tier. When they added queue time limit, and battle against bots, they removed karma system, as servers couldn't take load from all those battles against bot's teams. 

 

So every critique, suggestion or complaint against MM is waist of this forum memory, and your own time. It will not be changed! It can not be changed unless server population increase dramatically! MM is optimized to get you into battle ASAP not to get you into good battle. And we who played when queue times were normally 5-10 min, and went up to 30 min, appreciate this MM.

[zen_monk_]

CheefCoach, on 26 November 2020 - 02:03 AM, said:

 

So every critique, suggestion or complaint against MM is waist of this forum memory, and your own time. It will not be changed! It can not be changed unless server population increase dramatically! MM is optimized to get you into battle ASAP not to get you into good battle. And we who played when queue times were normally 5-10 min, and went up to 30 min, appreciate this MM.

 

Amen.

[Sheldwin]

I was at battle where at my team human players were me and one flight, all tier 8, and enemy team had a two players tier 9 and one tier 8 (no flight). I don't think that the mm weight the flight more than single players, it is only broken.

Edited by Sheldwin, 26 November 2020 - 04:17 AM.

[levlos]

hardy9z9, on 25 November 2020 - 11:02 PM, said:

[...]
Also by the way - don't you think it's pretty unfair to have apartclassic as your opponent five times in a row?

 

It is unfair to have him anywhere in the game -but solving that issue would need some pretty ugly medieval solutions. Some would involve a small guillotine, others a pike, others a Wagner opening with red-glowing pincers dangling menacingly around.

[maxram68]

levlos, on 26 November 2020 - 08:10 AM, said:

 

It is unfair to have him anywhere in the game -but solving that issue would need some pretty ugly medieval solutions. Some would involve a small guillotine, others a pike, others a Wagner opening with red-glowing pincers dangling menacingly around.

 

While that certainly sounds very tempting, perhaps someone could just cut his internet connection instead...?

[jakub_czyli_ja]

CheefCoach, on 26 November 2020 - 01:03 AM, said:

Apparently you don't understand how MM in WG is working. MM is picking players from general pool for side A, and for side B. It can't reshuffle side A and B after picking up in order to balance things out.

And my usual question is - you know that because you audited the code as well as compilation and deployment process, or you simply just strongly believe in that?

Block Quote

 Every criteria you put into MM will increase queue time. Queue time is fixed to 100-105 seconds after that it defaults to battle against bots.

Waited longer than 2 minutes to be drawn into battles with humans not so long ago, so it doesn't seem valid.

Block Quote

Before last iteration we had karma system. It keep trucking how man times player was top tier (bad karma points added) and lower tier (good karma points added), so player would be roughly half time top and half time bottom tier. When they added queue time limit, and battle against bots, they removed karma system, as servers couldn't take load from all those battles against bot's teams.

Simply because they are cheap and don't pay for server CPU. Had they pay more, server would work ok. Somehow they managed to do that during last weekend, reducing lags during the 2nd round.

Block Quote

So every critique, suggestion or complaint against MM is waist of this forum memory, and your own time. It will not be changed! It can not be changed unless server population increase dramatically! MM is optimized to get you into battle ASAP not to get you into good battle. And we who played when queue times were normally 5-10 min, and went up to 30 min, appreciate this MM.

 As everything on this forum.

You don't know what is MM working on, because there is no displayed queue content.

 

Queue time reduction is a result of introduction of bots, nothing else. The only thing that prevents only battles against bots is lack of server computation power.

[CheefCoach]

I know because I follow the information on the forum, can observe results of MM and I have functioning brain. Knowledge came with years of experience with several WG titles. 

 

Also queue times improved drastically after they abandon same tier matchmaking, and queue times increased previously when they moved from +2 tier spread to same tier match. They added bots shortly after; and bots didn't shortened queue time, but they added volume to the team, as team were filled with at least 10 planes at each side instead of 2-3. So firstly MM is doing it's job, and than bots are filling up the ranks. 

 

CPUs cost money, and with this population of players, it is strange that game wasn't cancelled. Also playing every battle against bots would kill the fun for many players, who would rather quit. There was mod battle against the bots years ago that nobody was playing. 

[CheefCoach]

You can write War and Peace on the forum, and that won't change MM a bit. Simple reason is that not even best programmer on the world can't do miracle; when there is very few players in queue, MM can't produce good results, at least not in the reasonable time-frame. 

[GonerNL]

CheefCoach, on 26 November 2020 - 10:06 PM, said:

when there is very few players in queue, MM can't produce good results, at least not in the reasonable time-frame. 

 

And when there are more players in the queue, MM creates totally unbalanced teams ...  a lose-lose situation.

[RoyalFlyingCorps]

Two things that could be implemented reasonably easily; never put bot GAAs or bombers against human ones and balance the specialised players.  Yes, the queues would be longer.  Would I care?  No, because those would bring quite a bit of balance to the game.  I feel sorry for the GAA players who'd have to wait, but in my view anything that discourages people from playing bombers is a good thing, an unintended but also welcome benefit - at least until the EF 131 and Su-10 are nerfed.

Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 28 November 2020 - 07:14 AM.

[CheefCoach]

RoyalFlyingCorps, on 28 November 2020 - 08:11 AM, said:

Two things that could be implemented reasonably easily; never put bot GAAs or bombers against human ones and balance the specialised players.  Yes, the queues would be longer.  Would I care?  No, because those would bring quite a bit of balance to the game.  I feel sorry for the GAA players who'd have to wait, but in my view anything that discourages people from playing bombers is a good thing, an unintended but also welcome benefit - at least until the EF 131 and Su-10 are nerfed.

 

You aren't the only one who is playing, and some of us like short queue times. We had to endure 5 or more min of waiting and it sucks. 

 

It isn't possible to make balanced MM, as ultimate problem is that no MM can't account for players own skills. Specialization of the plane don't bring any special bonus on it's own, and it is only bring potential benefits, with specializing equipment. I have specialized planes with green equipment, that aren't much stronger than unspecialized ones.  

[levlos]

I often find that flying a non-specialized multi-role practically makes you invisible to the enemy: without those wings around your icon, and in the cockpit of a, say, F4U, you can fire at everyone and still at the bottom of the enemy priority list. Sometimes, in a game, I wasn't shot at once over an airbase -not even one bullet !

[RoyalFlyingCorps]

CheefCoach, on 28 November 2020 - 08:10 AM, said:

 

You aren't the only one who is playing, and some of us like short queue times. We had to endure 5 or more min of waiting and it sucks. 

 

It isn't possible to make balanced MM, as ultimate problem is that no MM can't account for players own skills. Specialization of the plane don't bring any special bonus on it's own, and it is only bring potential benefits, with specializing equipment. I have specialized planes with green equipment, that aren't much stronger than unspecialized ones.  

 

I think the majority disagrees with you about specialisation; it won't necessarily unbalance a game, that's true, but much more often than not it does.  As for the other balancing, I can't see that would lead to 5 minute queue times.  In fact, I don't see why the 1:50 limit needs to change before you get an all bot game.

Edited by RoyalFlyingCorps, 28 November 2020 - 10:08 AM.

[jakub_czyli_ja]

CheefCoach, on 28 November 2020 - 08:10 AM, said:

You aren't the only one who is playing, and some of us like short queue times. We had to endure 5 or more min of waiting and it sucks.

Well, you try to screw the system getting you pimped OP plane, system should react.

 

OTOH there should be no OP planes as well as pimping possibility, but that's the totally different story.

 

Block Quote

 It isn't possible to make balanced MM, as ultimate problem is that no MM can't account for players own skills.

Only because you claim so?

Imagine that there is other game, called World of Tanks, where players manage to develop a system describing skill that is good enough to cause some changes in game - first it was efficiency, finally WN8, when I checked last time. Using only with data available to players.

Even for team games in real life there is something like such - a salary. Somehow for owners and managers it becomes clear, that one player is better than the other, and former gets paid more than the latter.

Even kids in the backyard are able to determine, who is better football player.

So being WG and having all the data from WoWP, such system, it should be possible to classify player' skill in good enough resolution. It would be for sure better than it's now, when players are totally mixed.

[CheefCoach]

jakub_czyli_ja, on 28 November 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

Only because you claim so?

 

My claim is as good as your's claim, except mine isn't fantasy. I use to be kid like you, dreaming of perfect MM, and than I had to grow up and start to accept and appreciate what I have, and to make reasonable suggestions. 

The fact is, not my opinion, wish, or desire, that simple system to track down how often players played top or bottom tier, and balance those two out, (karma system), was removed because it was breaking down servers. There were way to many battles against bots. You might say that they could just add more server power, but that isn't economically sustainable. There aren't enough paying customers to cover those costs. And you want on top of that to rank players and expect that MM can go and find exact matches!? With this server population, that is just simply insane. They don't do that in WoT where server population is much larger. 

The MM is as it is, because it is the only one that can be. There is no room to improve, karma system show that one in real example. It would either break the servers, or break queue times and and make everybody quits; which is exactly what I write down right on the start! Every reasonable person would understand this long time ago. 

[CheefCoach]

RoyalFlyingCorps, on 28 November 2020 - 11:07 AM, said:

 

I think the majority disagrees with you about specialisation; it won't necessarily unbalance a game, that's true, but much more often than not it does.  As for the other balancing, I can't see that would lead to 5 minute queue times.  In fact, I don't see why the 1:50 limit needs to change before you get an all bot game.

 

Whenever new line appears in for example World of warships, it seems like it is overpowered. It might be as well, but the best players are the first ones who get the new staff, so new staff always looks shinier. 

 

Same is with specialization. Players who spec their planes are often the ones that are good, or spend more time playing. So those little wings are consequence of their skills, more than their cause. 

 

As far as I recall, and this is stretchy, karma system I described above, added probably minute to queue times. Specialization matching would add significant time to wait line. As wait time increases, population decreases, that increase wait time... It could get to 5 min, for sure. 10ar once wanted to get win for his Swift to get free premium time (annually birthday of the plane) and he waited 30 min to get into 1 versus 1 battle. It was that bad. 

[jakub_czyli_ja]

CheefCoach, on 28 November 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

My claim is as good as your's claim, except mine isn't fantasy. I use to be kid like you, dreaming of perfect MM, and than I had to grow up and start to accept and appreciate what I have, and to make reasonable suggestions. 

And the difference is that I openly don't appreciate and barely accept current state.

It's WG' game, so they may do whatever they want with it, but one could think that their best interest is to attract as much players as possible, not throw them out because they may think that MM is rigged.

Block Quote

 The fact is, not my opinion, wish, or desire, that simple system to track down how often players played top or bottom tier, and balance those two out, (karma system), was removed because it was breaking down servers. There were way to many battles against bots. You might say that they could just add more server power, but that isn't economically sustainable. There aren't enough paying customers to cover those costs. And you want on top of that to rank players and expect that MM can go and find exact matches!? With this server population, that is just simply insane. They don't do that in WoT where server population is much larger. 

The MM is as it is, because it is the only one that can be. There is no room to improve, karma system show that one in real example. It would either break the servers, or break queue times and and make everybody quits; which is exactly what I write down right on the start! Every reasonable person would understand this long time ago.

I can imagine a number of other explanations, not related to server load. Like for example reverse engineering, how that system exactly works - whether it's per plane, or per account. And if the latter, just determine when you are going to duffer, and switch to less important planes, and when you are going to be on top, go back again to ones you care, so you can exp more effectively.

WG removed queue view in WoT, to prevent something like that, so why not in WoWP? With any plausible explanation?

Yep, I'd like to see players ranked, because that would reduce amount of frustration - each player would get battles on his level. Starting with 2 groups at the beginning, because there aren't enough players. Even that could remove skill wall, which means better retention, which means more players. Which means more players for MM to work on, which means shorter waiting times. And more paying players.

There is plenty room to improve, there is no will to improve.