75 replies to this topic

[CheefCoach]

All mentioned above existed in WoWp. Queue screen was showing players by tiers, and there was mod that gave scores to planes. Population wasn't higher, and they went into considerable effort to create 2.0 to make game better. 

 

Completely random MM is completely balanced. In same battles it will favor the player, on other it will help, but those two are balancing each other on the end. 

[InVictuS_ShaDoW]

CheefCoach, on 28 November 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

Same is with specialization. Players who spec their planes are often the ones that are good, or spend more time playing. So those little wings are consequence of their skills, more than their cause. 

Bravo

[prawiejakzywiec666]

There are plenty of players that just go to the mid sector (if it is an airport they are tempted like flies to the s...) and stay there for the whole fight complaining about the bad MM. Please use some tactics and do not pay that much attention to wings (specialization). I've seen so many clueless players on various tiers that at the moment I'm recognizing their nicks and from that moment I know the fight will be a hard one or not.

Edited by prawiejakzywiec666, 30 November 2020 - 01:57 PM.

[R72M]

I have to say that in recent weeks I'm just grateful when I can actually get logged on and not experience connection issues or lagging. The number of games that I have started only to be kicked off by the server (and lose etc) is far too high.

 

It is really frustrating!

 

 

[Ziptop]

I agree with the OP to be honest

 

A point that has been made by many of the more established players here on the forum as well as rep's of WG themselves is that - basically there isn't any matchmaking

 

And lets be clear about this. A system which simply selects players from a queue and puts them into battles but which does not take into account aircraft specialization or even differentiates between Light Fighters, Multirole Fighters or Heavy Fighters is NOT a matchmaking system, it's simply a battle creation system. 

 

This may be enough for those who are heavily invested in this game, (many of those have been playing since the alpha or beta and have aircraft at all tiers. - and the voices who argue in support pretty much all fall into this category.)

 

But as the frequency with which this complaint surfaces on the forum demonstrates this is clearly not enough for newer or casual players.

Those players will see 8 of 10 battles where the specialized aircraft are all on the same team and suffer the predictable results that this delivers. 

They will come to forum to ask "is this right?"

get told to shut up

and leave.

 

And to be honest with you all I can understand that reaction. 

I played through the beta and though I took a break of a few years I would consider myself to be fairly invested still, I have a lot of aircraft in my hangar, enough to chose which tier to fly at and while I'm not a brilliant player, I'm competent.

But even with all that investment I feel it grinding my gears when I get those 10 battles which are so unbalanced that the outcome is almost guaranteed from start.

and I wonder why I've bothered to play those 10 battles at all?

and then I turn it off and go do something else instead.

 

and because I'm "invested" I come back. 

but if I wasn't, I can imagine I might find myself drawn to other games which deliver this experience better. 

 

 

Edited by Ziptop, 01 December 2020 - 12:00 AM.

[apartclassic]

Ziptop, on 30 November 2020 - 11:59 PM, said:

(...)

 

 

That's not exactly the point. Whenever someone comes and complains about specialized planes being all on one side, and gives that as the main complaint and reason for losing battles all the time, such a person is wrong. There are many posts trying to put it as precisely as possible, and emphasizing over and over that specialization in itself is demonized. This is when, as you put it, one may feel shut off.

 

When we talk about imbalance created by MM working with 'all fighters being fighters' or 'human bomber equals bot GAA', it's a different story. This is, in my feeling, commonly agreed as the real fallacy of MM in its current state. Imbalance in classes, not imbalance in particular plane being specialized or not. Blindfold as CM is aware of that, I have reasons to believe she did pass it on to dev team, we keep harping about it - and that's basically the extent of what we, the players, the customers, can do. The issue is already identified, and we did more than enough in doing that - the solution however does not, in the slightest, depend on us. In case of MM the ball is entirely in WG's hands. Again, it's been talked about so many times, it becomes tedious to do it yet again. I mean that getting into yet another discussion, in which someone will say 'specialized', another person will talk about bombers, yet someone else will pull a genie out of a hat and talk about rigged games, and on top of it all someone will insult others - it's just... it's sooooo 2014... I mean, I just can't. Not again and again.

 

Specialization is not an issue. MM disregarding specialization is not an issue. There is no way MM can be made e.g. skill-based, or WR-based, without seriously lengthening the queue times, thus contradicting the whole basis of MM. The issue with class imbalance is definitely a serious thing, and many of us would like to have it finally addressed - but only WG can do it, and aparently it is not on the table neither now, nor in the foreseeable future. Moreover, there is no way to please everyone, and WG will not even try; the hierarchy is simple, this game is not a charity, there's a budget to be met and that requires a playerbase that does not abandon the title because of repeatedly spending 10-20 minutes in queue for battle. I simplify, I am aware of it, but that's the state of the matter right now. Everything depends on WG, and I don't dare expand on that.

Edited by apartclassic, 01 December 2020 - 12:21 AM.

[CheefCoach]

If we talking about balancing, the game is now more balanced than ever. In 1.9 heavy fighters were dominating battles, and competent player with heavy fighter could kill entire enemy team alone! Example:

 

 

Things that broke the balance of the game were introducing of certain specialized equipment that wasn't considered during initial balancing of the game. I am talking about:

 

-Strengthen hard-points that reducing ordinance reload time by 31% with around 6% of speed reduction, that increased efficiency of the plane by almost 50%;

-Navigation radio equipment that reduces planes visibility by around 25%, added with paint...

 

It gives advantages to certain classes that are greater than advantages that other classes received with their equipment. 

 

 

[GonerNL]

apartclassic, on 01 December 2020 - 01:19 AM, said:

Specialization is not an issue. 

 

I think we all agree on that.

Specialization in itself is not the problem ; it is how the specialists are being divided over the teams. More often than not one team gets all or many more specialists than the other team. And that in many cases ia a problem ....

[apartclassic]

GonerNL, on 01 December 2020 - 08:03 AM, said:

 

I think we all agree on that.

Specialization in itself is not the problem ; it is how the specialists are being divided over the teams. More often than not one team gets all or many more specialists than the other team. And that in many cases ia a problem ....

 

There, reading without understanding. I just said this isn't the point. It's totally irrelevant.

[Ziptop]

apartclassic, on 01 December 2020 - 09:37 AM, said:

 

There, reading without understanding. I just said this isn't the point. It's totally irrelevant.

 

In fact specialization does matter. - if for no other reason than perception of advantage/disadvantage.

 

And having 8 out of 10 battles where the opposing team features an advantage of 2 or more specialized aircraft doesn't give a good impression of a balanced game. 

 

As for does specialization deliver any advantage in game? Well, the wings are not purely cosmetic and that is all that needs to be said. 

[CheefCoach]

GonerNL, on 01 December 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

 

I think we all agree on that.

Specialization in itself is not the problem ; it is how the specialists are being divided over the teams. More often than not one team gets all or many more specialists than the other team. And that in many cases ia a problem ....

 

I am sure that we aren't agree at all. Everybody have problem of it's own, and everybody believes that his problem is crucial one. Objectivity is scarce; we are all biased. That is the reason why developers shouldn't pay to much attention to the forums. 

 

See apart plays so much with and without of specialization, that he noticed that specialization don't make that much difference. So he don't care how MM will distribute specialized planes. As somebody who played a lot in old days as well, he do care about queue times. I agree with him on this.

 

What he is upset about is that he can't go and easily kill planes like Su 10 or EF 131, so he is in believe that their turret guns are overpowered. That is translation of his unbalanced class opinion. I who fly those planes far more often than him, and get killed all the times in them, don't share his opinion on the subject.

 

Thing I would change the most in the game isn't MM at all. It is how much time it takes to complete daily missions. I use to play more this game, when I could complete them all in 1-2 hours. I would play more, if I didn't had to play them on all III periods, especially on period I, that became boring to play.

 

I can assure you that team with better players is winning most of the time. Bad players always blames MM, as they always expect for other players to carry them into the victory. It is I will do whatever I want to do mentality, and rest of team can concentrate on winning, and if we lose all the time, I will blame developers and match making for giving me the bad team. Even if devs create perfectly balanced MM, bad players's team will always had one constant, the bad player itself. 

[CheefCoach]

Ziptop, on 01 December 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:

 

In fact specialization does matter. - if for no other reason than perception of advantage/disadvantage.

 

And having 8 out of 10 battles where the opposing team features an advantage of 2 or more specialized aircraft doesn't give a good impression of a balanced game. 

 

As for does specialization deliver any advantage in game? Well, the wings are not purely cosmetic and that is all that needs to be said. 

 

Getting medals is far more frequent when plane is specialized, and all equipment is fully specked. Not all specialized planes have fully specked gear. Wining is more based on good tactical choices, and depend less on aircraft configuration. 

Impression have no room in scientific method. 

I am more upset that I am bottom tier in 8 out of 10 battles. But state of affairs is such that it can't be altered. We should be grateful that we stile have the game!

[Ziptop]

 

"he noticed that specialization don't make that much difference" - this is the subjective opinion of a well above average player.*

 

Specialization is more than cosmetic, it provide's advantages in speed, turn rate, guns accuracy, weapon reload time...often several combinations of all of the above. These are real advantages.

 

"Impression have no room in scientific method." - actually there is a whole field of science devoted to the way we perceive things. (and this knowledge is increasingly used with great success commercially to sell you things or to keep you clicking on websites etc.

 

*Please STOP viewing things from the perspective of highly experienced demi-god level players or in hypothetical 1v1 dogfight scenario's where your experience might counter the advantage of better equipment. This entire argument needs to be viewed through the lens of the average player and the impact that this has on their experience of the game.

 

 

[maxram68]

Allow me to add some facts to the discussion. 
I've analysed 179 of my own battles.

 

Just for clarification, I'm not obsessed and/or have too much time on my hands (far from, in fact).
The explanation is a little more simple: turns out there are various interesting 'things' stored in a replay file - besides the actual replay itself.
With a bit of programming I was able to extract informations related to the teams incl. number of specialists on both sides as well as the outcome (win/draw/loss) of those 179 battles.

 

So the (often mentioned) statement: "more specialists on either side determines the outcome of the battle".
...can be spiced up a bit to: "A difference of +/-x specialitsts between teams determines the outcome of the battle".

 

Calculating the difference in number of specialists, combined with the outcome (as in a win or a loss from the perspective of the team I'm on), it is possible to dig a bit further to see if that statement is considered "true" (="we won and had more specialists" OR "we lost and had fewer specialists") or "false" (="we lost even though we had more specialists" OR "we won even though we had fewer specialists").

 

Results:
Difference:-3 specialists. True:1. False:3 (as in: "True: It was a loss because they had more specialists. False: It was a win even though they had more specialists")

Difference:-2 specialists. True:8. False:5 (as in: "True: It was a loss because they had more specialists. False: It was a win even though they had more specialists")
Difference:-1 specialist. True:4. False:15 (as in: "True: It was a loss because they had more specialists. False: It was a win even though they had more specialists")
Difference:1 specialist. True:36. False:17 (as in: "True: It was a win because we had more specialists. False: Is was a loss even though we had more specialists")
Difference:2 specialists. True:23. False:5 (as in: "True: It was a win because we had more specialists. False: Is was a loss even though we had more specialists")
Difference:3 specialists. True:6. False:2 (as in: "True: It was a win because we had more specialists. False: Is was a loss even though we had more specialists")
Difference:4 specialists. True:2. False:1 (as in: "True: It was a win because we had more specialists. False: Is was a loss even though we had more specialists")
Difference:5 specialists. True:1. False:0 (as in: "True: It was a win because we had more specialists. False: Is was a loss even though we had more specialists")
Total true:81 Total false:48. 
For the rest of the battles (179-129=50) there were either no specialists at all (highly unlikely)  or the difference was 0 (equal number of specialists on both sides).

 

Draw your own conclusions.

I'm fully aware that the number/distribution of specialists alone doesn't determine the outcome of a battle, but it seems to be an important factor.

To some.

 

For the record, I'm almost exclusively playing tier 4-9, has a WR around 60%, rarely participates in a flight (unfortunately, it can be fun), mainly play LF, and quite often pick a specialised plane w. close to or fully upgraded kit.
My pilots typically have around 8-11 skill points - give or take - with only a handful or so over 15, iirc.
I never use gold ammo/consumables unless I win it and happen to stumble upon it later and slap it on a plane.

 

[GonerNL]

apartclassic, on 01 December 2020 - 09:37 AM, said:

There, reading without understanding. I just said this isn't the point. It's totally irrelevant.

 

Or maybe you should explain better ...  

[apartclassic]

Specialization plays a significant part only in 1v1 engagements between two the same type planes. In this scenario the one with better equipment will get the advantage (disregarding human factor for the moment). However, a specced LF will still struggle to reach and chase a bomber (specialized or not), a HF will still not outturn any other fighter (specced or not), etc. Do you see where I'm going? Depending on planes participating, it's a matter of choosing what and when to engage. If one, in an unspecced (i.e. new and not fully mastered) plane pick up fights with specialized planes from the other team (especially of the same class, or the same type), the result is almost inevitably the same loss, over and over. It is the human factor, not the specialization in itself. If you have an unspecced plane that has a specced hard counter on the other team, you try to avoid that opponent; if you are in a specced plane, and there are no counters on the other side, you do whatever the hell you want. This isn't a matter of gear and equipment, this is the matter of tactics and strategy. It's humans who make or break the specialization in MM - by either being too overconfident in their ultimatet Spitfires or Yaks, or overconfident in their belief they can combat such planes.

 

If the other team has 2 or 4, or 6 specialized planes, it does not matter at all. What matters is what types are they, and can they spoil your own gameplan or not. If you're in a bomber, and the other team is full of specialized Yaks, you just go higher than their altitude and break out crisps; you choose non-obvious routes; you use bots command to get cover or diversion; you remember the basics of aviation and utilize either your energy advantage, or your speed advantage, or your superior firepower, or your better acceleration, or your advantageous stall/climb/dive characteristics, etc etc. This is what matters, and this is what I deem skill in this game. Anyone can and eventually will specialize his/her plane; not anyone can fly them effectively.

 

Many players need the edge of specialization to compensate for their shortcomings in skill. In such cases it is easy to believe specialization is the final gimmick needed. In part it is, as it will compensate for some things - but in itself, specialization has zero bearing on lack of spatial awareness, on bad gunnery, on ignoring plane's characterics, on making basic flying mistakes (like diving with full throttle and without using flaps/brakes - as WoWP allows - to maintain maneuverability). Some, and only some, items of equipment will do things behind the scene, that may elevate one's skill to some new level - an example would be Gun Sight, which introduces slightly higher values of auto-aim and lowers dispersion, thus alleviating problems that are on the side of the player (be it bad eyesight or poor ISP and lag impairing aiming). This however are crutches only. The gear will not make a bad player suddenly a world class ace. That's why a lot of players need an additional layer of 'insurance' to get their WR inflated, aka anchored flights. Gear in itself is just a gimmick. The classes are balanced within a certain threshold of characteristics; if a player keeps that in mind, and pick his fights consciously, gear can be totally negated.

 

Yes, this is a viewpoint of a very experienced player, of someone who flew them all (well, almost) and in various iterations of the game. Instead of dismissing it as such, I would imagine it would be beneficial to consider this as something of value. In my opinion it's all about the player and how he/she handles the gear that is at his/her disposal. For me indeed the amount of specialized planes on each side is irrelevant. Depending on the plane I am in, it may or may not impact my plan for the particular battle - and usually doesn't. If I need to, I will avoid the 'better' planes; if I can, I will terrorize 'worse' planes; if I need to, I will fly around the map being effective in what MY plane can do, and not trying to play according to THEIR strengths. Specialized or not, each plane can do certain things and can't do other things. That's the gist of it all, and not some abstract +3% better roll on a plane with specialization.

 

Is this an understandable explanation?

[levlos]

This being said,

 

specialization does have major impact in some particular circumstances:

 

1- being unable to repair your control surfaces until you are specialized is a real bummer. It makes a great difference when you get damaged in dogfight -you basically die almost instantly. So in this case, a non-spec LF is greatly handicapped.

2- Not having strengthened pylons to speed up the bomb reload is a pain, it slows you down and exposes you more to the defenders. In the whole game duration, I deem it reduces your efficiency by a fair margin.

 

...  in all other cases, the specialization increases by a small or fair margin what you already have. It will not make much of a difference, I agree with Apart. For instance, I would in all cases prefer to be in the same team as Apart with him piloting a non-specced aircraft rather than myself in a fully upgraded bird. Any day.

[zen_monk_]

apartclassic, on 01 December 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

Depending on the plane I am in, it may or may not impact my plan for the particular battle - and usually doesn't. If I need to, I will avoid the 'better' planes; if I can, I will terrorize 'worse' planes; if I need to, I will fly around the map being effective in what MY plane can do, and not trying to play according to THEIR strengths. Specialized or not, each plane can do certain things and can't do other things. That's the gist of it all, and not some abstract +3% better roll on a plane with specialization.

 

Echo chamber testing, testing... are we on? Ok, here it goes...

 

This is burred in a lot of text, but should be taken out and pointed.

 

Exactly this piece of advice by Apart made me move from average to ~competent. When he explained me this as a motto to be used at the start of every battle, my efficiency in battles significantly improved - once I learned how to implement (not the easiest thing, but doable). Try it people, it works.

 

[apartclassic]

Mkay - I promised not to post in Best Battles, and I am keeping my word. But for you believing specialization is the thing:

 

 

Arguably the worst t4 GAA (when it comes to bunker busting). As you can see, it wasn't even specialized at that point. And it wasn't the only Gabreski/Flying Legend pre-speccing. Human factor however....

 

And this:

 

Maiden flight, non-specced. Human factor, again.

 

I just don't buy the argument about specialization in MM breaking the game. These are just two examples why I don't.

Edited by apartclassic, 01 December 2020 - 01:09 PM.

[GonerNL]

apartclassic, on 01 December 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

Is this an understandable explanation?

 

Completely understandable. But I still do not agree on everything you say.

Especially the point you make where 5 or 6 specialists in one team and none or only 1 on the other shouldn't matter. I play a lot on the CIS server lately and that happens a lot there (EU not as often). And they're never all in specced Yaks of course, that part of MM actually does work. They are in fighters, heavies, bombers etc. and then it does matter. Because I almost always lose those battles (or win when I'm on the specced side) and the specialists are all in the top scores, so they're not just specced, they're good. That's just my experience ...